Datuk Dr Looi Hoong Wah, a respected Malaysian nuclear physicist and consultant physician, has defended the beleaguered rare earths processing plant of Australian rare earths miner Lynas Corp. in Kuantan, saying the allegations being spread by its opponents are fabricated lies that bear relations to the country's upcoming general election.
"The substance they bring in is just nothing but rare earth oil containing a tiny bit of weak radioactive thorium 232," Dr Looi, who has 40 years of interest in nuclear medicine and particle physics, was quoted by Bernama.
From Malaysia Kini: Lynas plant unsafe Down Under, but okay here
YOURSAY 'Why does the country of origin choose to send rare earth to Kuantan and accept only the finished products minus the waste?'
Kuantan doc trashes concerns over Lynas' radioactivity
Bystander: Dr
Looi Hoong Wah, please convince us as to why the Australian government
chose to send the rare earth all the way to Kuantan to have it
processed, only to send back the finished products to its country minus
the waste?Cheap labour? I doubt it. The transportation and all the stringent handling costs will more than outrun the cheaper labour costs here.
You may be a doctor, but I expect you to have a little common sense when it comes to economics.
Sabahan: Dr Looi, your knowledge appears to be puzzling. If the half-life is 14 billion years, it is very dangerous, because the effects of the radiation remains strong for millions of years and thus will cause mutation.
On the other hand, if the half-life is short, the effects wear off quickly. Chernobyl remains deserted and will remain so for many years.
If you think, long half-life is good, may I suggest, you go and live near a destroyed nuclear plant.
Stop114A: Doctor, you pointed out that you put thorium in your hand and still lived. How about putting it under your pillow from now on?
Is the radiation from the sun safe? Yet thousands of Australians die from skin cancer each year.
That is the reason Lynas is here. The rare earth refinery waste is radioactive, which won't kill immediately but it will one day, when you least expect it.
You gave the ridiculous example of burning a house down in 14 billion years, why should Kuantan people be subject to something like that? Is it okay if we start burning down your house now, bit by bit starting from your chair?
We don't owe Lynas anything and this has nothing to do with politics. Poor Dr Looi, who put you in such position to say what you said. You met a nuclear physicist 40 years ago and now you think you are a nuclear expert.
Excuse me, I think there is a big difference between a physician and a physicist.
Nadja: So this ‘Dr Know-all' is actually saying that the Australian authorities are not so clever.
Why does he only pop up now at election time? Why did he not long ago advise the Australian government that they do not understand nuclear physics and are all wrong?
Maybe they would be happy to learn that the waste is not dangerous and there is no need to ban it from being sent back and dumped in Australia.
Noni: Knowledge 40 years ago can be so outdated that it might not be relevant today.
Thorium emits alpha particles. You can hold it in your hand without any ill effects because alpha particles do not penetrate human skin. But it is dangerous when inhaled, as a human's internal organs has no defence against internal irradiation.
Also, there's the risk of bioaccumulation, i.e. breathe the contaminated air day in day out, or any dust that might drop around the vicinity and get airborne again after agitation by the wind, traffic, etc.
Thorium does not produce electrons. Thorium emits alpha particles, not electricity. This fellow is talking nonsense.
If longer half-life is a non-issue, then scientists won't have a headache with plutonium and uranium, etc - their half-life runs into billions of years as well.
Conclusion, this so-called doc is spreading disinformation.
Free And Fair Election: Dr Looi, I don't need to be a rocket scientist to tell you that any kind of thorium 232 exposed over a long term period is bad for health, otherwise countries like Indonesia and New Zealand which are closer to Australia, would be the first to open their doors to Lynas. Care to explain why?
Righteous: So all the Australians who are concerned about the raw material being shipped past their front doors and the possible radioactive dust that could spread are all wrong too?
Why is the government in Australia taking measures to protect their people and not Malaysia?
Soo Jin Hou: According to Atomic Energy Licensing Board's standard, the radioactive threshold for potassium-40 is 100 Bq/g whereas it is 1 Bq/g for thorium-232. This implies that potassium-40 is 100 times less hazardous than thorium-232.
That's why bananas and potassium chloride salt are classified as non-radioactive as opposed to Lynas' waste, despite the former having equivalent radioactivity.
Jiminy Qrikert: Dr Looi, why speak up only now? If you are so sure of what you claim and can substantiate your claims with proof and references, why did you not come forward earlier, especially in the early stages of the debate.
In any case, whatever your contentions, it is better for Malaysia to be nuclear-free. If it takes Malaysians to keep Lynas out as the first step, then so be it.
Sometimes, all it takes a simple logic - Australia is more progressive than we are and they don't want such a plant there. They don't even want the ore to pass through their towns.
If they don't want it, we don't want it. Simple.
Germany is now shutting down their nuclear plants and they are a precision-driven society. We can't even maintain good roads in comparison.
So, if Germany no longer wants nuclear plants, then we don't want them here, too.
The above is a selection of comments posted by Malaysiakini subscribers.
Thorium-232 has a half-life of 14 billion years and our descendants will be exposed to dangerous radiation for over 14 billion years?
ReplyDeleteThis is absolutely not true and is a very common misconception.
In fact there was a ridiculous claim in the Sin Chew Newspaper by the chairman of a certain NGO that since Thorium-232 has a half-life of 14 Billion years, it is very dangerous for an extremely long time and will even affect our descendants!
He should not be making any such nonsensical statements if he has absolutely no basic knowledge of even elementary kindergarten physics.
THE LONGER THE HALF-LIFE OF A SUBSTANCE THE LESS IS THE RADIOACTIVITY and as such the less dangerous it is.
As a simple analogy, if it takes 14,000,000,000 years for half of a house to be burnt, there is no chance of anybody getting hurt. But if it takes only 14 minutes for half of the house to be burnt down, a lot of people will be injured or killed.
Lead-208 i.e. the so-called non-radioactive lead has an even longer half-life of
19 Million Billion Years and as such the radioactivity is so low that it is practically undetectable and we use it in our car batteries.
Thorium-232 which is the only significant radioactive element found in the Lynas waste has an incredibly long half-life of 14 billion years and as such is much less radioactive than the Potassium-40 whose half-life is only 1.25 billion years.
Comparison of Radioactivity in Bq (number of atoms decaying in 1second)
Pure Thorium-232 = 4,080 Bq/gm
Pure Potassium-40 (Half-life of 1.25 billion yrs) = 254,000 Bq/gm
Naturally Occurring Potassium (3 different isotopes) in our body and food = 31.825 Bq/gm
Artificially created Plutonium-238 (1/2 life=87.7 years)
= 634,000,000,000 Bq/gm
Lynas Rare Earth Waste = 6 Bq/gm
Dato' Dr Looi
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ReplyDeleteAmus quoting Soo Jin Hou:
"According to AELB (Malaysian Atomic Energy Licensing Board's) standard, the radioactive threshold for K-40 is 100 Bq/g,
whereas it is 1 Bq/g for Thorium-232.
This implies that K-40 is 100 times less hazardous than Thorium-232." Unquote.
ANSWER:
1 gram of Pure Natural Metallic Potassium (mixture of K-39, K-40 and K-41) =
32 Bq/g
Therefore to get 100 Bq/gm Metallic Potassium we need to enrich the Natural
Metallic Potassium by 312%.
IN ORDER TO ENRICH A RADIONUCLIDE IN A MIXTURE OF ISOTOPES, JUST LIKE ENRICHMENT OF URANIUM, WE NEED HIGHLY SOPHISTICATED MACHINERY WHICH CAN ONLY BE FOUND IN THE MOST ADVANCED COUNTRY WITH REALLY SMART SCIENTISTS.
I have not heard of any country that is enriching Potassium on a commercial basis. So to say that the radioactive threshold for K-40 is 100 Bq/g is rather ODD and INCOMPREHENSIBLE !
Small quantities of enriched Potassium may have been produced for research purposes.
Quote Dr Kramer, the World Authority in Radioactivity in Potassium: "40K: Potassium is the 7th most abundant element on the earth's surface and plays an integral part in life.
Reference Man (ICRP 1975) contains 140 g of potassium of which 0.0117% is the radioactive 40K, which means there is about 17 mg of 40K.
The activity of 17 mg 40K is approximately 4.4 kBq (or 0.06 Bq g-1) WHICH GIVES AN ANNUAL DOSE OF ~ 0.2 mSv.
Comparing these values with Table S2 one sees that the 40K in humans is well below the proposed exclusion level of 10 Bq g-1 but is 20 times larger than the IAEA's 10 microSv exclusion dose.
If one assumes that the exclusion dose is harmless, then is a dose that is 20 times larger still harmless? It appears so as we live with this normally.
Potassium chloride can be found in large quantities in stores selling materials for water treatment. The potassium content is about 500 g kg-1.
Typically, the material is sold in 20 kg bags so each bag contains ~600 kBq of 40K giving a concentration of 30 Bq g-1.
This is well above the exclusion level yet the material is handled as non-radioactive. The external dose rate in close proximity to a typical display in these types of shops would be about 150 microSv hr-1.
A worker would only need to be near the pile for about 7 hours to exceed the public dose limit of 1 mSv.
Contrast 40K with the other exclusion level for ƒÀ/ƒÁ emitters (i.e., 0.1 Bq g-1).
When one considers that foods like bananas and potatoes exceed this level (~0.16 Bq g-1) it becomes clearer why the ICRP had to make a special case for 40K (the IAEA exempted 40K within the human body from consideration).
The question remains why the emissions of 40K (ƒÀ: 1.31 MeV max and 0.51 MeV ave; ƒÁ: 1.46 MeV) can be considered to be less harmful than other beta emitters by a factor of a 100?"
Unquote.
Dr Looi
ALL THE ALLEGATIONS MADE IN THE ABOVE COMMENTS HAVE ALREADY BEEN DEBUNKED A LONG LONG TIME AGO.
ReplyDeletePLEASE GO TO THE FOLLOWING LINK TO SEE ALL THE ANSWERS:
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http://kickdefella.net/2012/04/17/lynas-negligible-radiation-but-only-toxic-chemical-waste/#more-5242
Dato' Dr Looi Hoong Wah
FAMM, MB., ChB(Manchester), MRCS(England), MRCP(UK), MRCP(London)
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http://kickdefella.net/2012/04/17/lynas-negligible-radiation-but-only-toxic-chemical-waste/#more-5242
Nick Tsurikov the international radiation safety expert who is the co-author of the IAEA safety report had categorically maintained that there is absolutely no radiation or toxic waste problem from the Lynas plant.
ReplyDeleteQuote Nick Tsurikov:
" NICK TSURIKOV, RADIATION SAFETY SPECIALIST, ON LYNAS PLANT, QUOTE:
"The following has been confirmed way too many times and has NEVER EVER been proven to be false by anyone:
1. Radiation from the plant will be undetectable outside the boundaries;
2. None of the materials have to be signposted as 'radioactive' for transport - as per international regulations, since 1996;
3. In accordance with international guidelines, the plant can be allowed to operate pretty much anywhere in the world with minimal regulation;
4. Vast majority of tailings will have only half of thorium that is in normal Malaysian soil;
5. Thorium in other waste is insoluble and cannot 'poison' any plants, animals or the environment - even in theory;
6. Blending of tailings follows the basic safety principle of World Health Organisation, International Labour Organisation and seven more UN and other reputable international organisation - with guidelines on this existing in many countries;
7. Maximum dose to workers is not expected to be more that ~25% of the limit, therefore - in accordance with international guidelines - personal monitoring is not even necessary: the doses are so low that they can be assessed for a 'work group', no need for 'individual' assessments.
Unquote.
ORE FOR LYNAS PLANT = 1,600 ppm (parts per million) of Thorium
2 MOST VOLUMINOUS LYNAS "WASTE" = 12 ppm of Thorium
SMALL 3rd RESIDUE STREAM = 1,500 ppm of Thorium
AVERAGE MALAYSIAN SOIL = 20 ppm OF THORIUM
Nick Tsurikov, Radiation Safety Expert: " THE MAJORITY OF THIS LYNAS "WASTE" WILL HAVE ONLY HALF THE THORIUM THAN IN NORMAL MALAYSIAN SOIL.
So, in fact most of Lynas residues are only half as radioactive as the sand the kids all over Malaysia play in the kindergartens"
(Note: Sand or crystalline SiO2 is also classified as a group 1 Carcinogen by IARC).
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Journal of Nuclear and Related Technology
1. THE ANNUAL DOSE RATE EXPOSURE
FROM MALAYSIAN CLAY BRICK HOUSE = 0.43 mSv/year
(215 x Lynas Worst Case Scenario)
2. SLEEPING IN WOODEN HOUSE = 0.20 mSv/yr
(100x Lynas worst case)
3. SLAG BRICK AND GRANITE HOUSE = up to 2.0 mSv/yr
(1,000x Lynas worst case)
SO TO ALL ANTI-LYNAS FOLKS, YOU SHOULD PITCH UP A TENT NEXT TO THE LYNAS PLANT AND SEND YOUR ENTIRE FAMILY TO LIVE NEXT TO LYNAS AS THIS IS HUNDREDS OF TIMES LESS RADIOACTIVE THAN LIVING IN YOUR PRESENT WOODEN OR BRICK HOUSES !
4. SLEEPING NEXT TO SOMEONE for 8 hrs/day
(e.g. your wife) = 0.02 mSv (UNSCER, IAEA)
(10x Lynas worst case)
AND DON'T SLEEP WITH YOUR WIFE OR HUSBAND FOR THAT IS LIKE SLEEPING NEXT TO 10 LYNAS PLANTS!
Dato' Dr Looi Hoong Wah
FAMM, MB., ChB(Manchester), MRCS(England), MRCP(UK), MRCP(London)
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Dose in worst case scenario within 1 km of Lynas plant = 0.002 mSv/yr
Monazite Ore in Tin Tailings or Amang = 284 Bq/g or 69,608 ppm.
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ReplyDeleteQUOTE : " According to the CERRIE Report (actually the CERRIE minority report), IAEA model may have underestimated the risk of internal emitters, which are radioactive sources that are inhaled or ingested. This hypothesis is not merely based on correlation type studies, but is backed with sound scientific reasoning."
CERRIE Minority Report and European Committee on Radiation Risk (ECRR)
The anti-lynas group (including the good Hon. Professor C.) has often used the CERRIE Minority Report to claim that "There is strong evidence that current models of hazard from radioactivity inside the human body underestimate risks by at least 100 and possibly up to 1,000 times."
What happened at CERRIE (Committee Examining Radiation Risks of Internal Emitters) is well known (see http://iopscience.iop.org/0952-4746/24/4/E02/pdf/jr44e1.pdf , http://www.cerrie.org/ and
http://www.comare.org.uk/ which advises the UK government) and is due to two members, one of whom is Christopher Busby who, it seems, SELLS RADIATION PROTECTION KITS TO FUKUSHIMA SURVIVORS.
(see http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2011/nov/21/christopher-busby-radiation-pills-fukushima and
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/georgemonbiot/2011/nov/22/christopher-busby-nuclear-green-party ). Busby is very political and even ran for office.
They also cited that the self-styled European Committee on Radiation Risk (ECRR) which is an informal committee formed in 1997 following a meeting by the European Green Party which claimed that the risk from radioactive internal emitters are at least 100 to 200 times more hazardous than currently believed.
Quote: Nick Tsurikov, Radiation Safety Expert "The point that I would like to make is to illustrate clearly that ECRR "100-200 times" factors cannot possibly be correct - have a look:
The 'official' risk of getting cancer from radiation exposure is 1 in 20,000 per 1 milliSievert of dose. So, if the hazard is 'understated' by, say, 200 times - it becomes 1 in 100, per 1 mSv of dose.
Thousands of people in Malaysian amang industry and in heavy mineral sands industry world-wide have been exposed to about 5 mSv every year for (let's say, on average) 6 years of working life, so their cumulative dose was 30 mSv.
WHICH MEANS THAT IF ECRR IS CORRECT, EVERY THIRD WORKER IN THE AMANG INDUSTRY WOULD BE DEAD FROM CANCER BY NOW !
And what about those who were exposed to about 20 mSv for five years or more (in any industry, uranium included) - in accordance with the ECRR coefficients - THE CHANCE IS 1 IN 1, SO THEY ARE ALL DEAD FROM CANCER BY NOW !
I do not see any cancer epidemic happening... What about all the tin miners in Malaysia in 1950's-1970's: they all should've died within several years after starting their work (as their coefficient would be close to 5 to 1...) Just some points for general consideration..." Unquote.
Dr Looi
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http://www.mobtv.my/public_events-1040.html
Holding Pure Metallic Thorium-232 in the Hand
ReplyDelete*
IF you go to Google and do a search for pictures of how foreign scientists handle Thorium-232 and even pure enriched Uranium-235 and 238, you would be able to find a lot of pictures that clearly show that you can safely hold pure thorium of uranium pellets or rods in your hands.
This is because Thorium-232, when it decays, produces only alpha particles and no gamma rays.
Because of the very long half life of Thorium-232, which is 14 billion years (the age of the universe is only 13.7 billion years), the amount of Thorium-232 which is transformed to Radium-228 after, say a year, is incredibly small.
As such, only a tiny amount of alpha radiation (helium atoms without their electrons) is produced by the thorium atoms.
Alpha particles do not penetrate the human skin and are, therefore, not dangerous.
Thorium-232 is safe, provided we are not stupid enough to eat it or grind it up into a fine powder and inhale it.
Even if you were to consume the non-radioactive Lead-208, you would not be staying healthy for long.
Thorium-232 does not produce the dangerous penetrating ionizing gamma rays.
The 0.09 MeV of gamma radiation detected comes from Thorium-228's decay to Radium-224 to Radon-220 to Polonium-216 and ultimately through a number of pathways to the stable non-radioactive Lead-208.
That is why I really cannot understand why people in Kuantan are so irrationally fearful of Lynas Corporation's rare earth plant, which will produce only a small amount of Thorium-232 in their waste product.
That plant is neither a nuclear reactor nor a nuclear bomb manufacturing facility.
It is only a plant to extract rare earth from its ore, which is dug up from the ground.
And the rare earth ore has been in the ground for billions of years.
The situation has become ridiculous, and even farcical.
For instance, one of my friends has even stopped construction of his new house in Kuantan because he is fearful of a nuclear explosion in the Lynas plant.
This impossibility has become a probability in the minds of the intensely brainwashed people in Kuantan.
REMEMBER THE "WHITE GAS BULBS" OR RATHER KEROSENE GAS MANTLES MADE IN GERMANY?
THESE WERE USED IN THOSE LANTERNS WHICH GIVE OFF A VERY BRIGHT WHITE LIGHT AND WERE UNIVERSALLY USED BY ALL STREET HAWKERS IN THE WHOLE OF MALAYSIA IN THE 60s AND 70s?
THESE GAS MANTLES ARE MADE OF FABRIC SOAKED IN THORIUM-232 MIXED WITH A LITTLE CERIUM. AND AFTER THE INITIAL "FIRING" IT BECOMES ALMOST PURE THORIUM DIOXIDE.
IN THE BURNING KEROSENE VAPOUR, THE TEMPERATURE CAN REACH OVER 1,000 DEGREES CENTIGRADE.
MILLIONS OF MALAYSIANS IN THE PAST HAD HELD THESE "DANGEROUS, RADIOACTIVE" THORIUM GAS MANTLES IN THEIR HANDS.
THESE ARE STILL BEING SOLD FREELY AND WITHOUT ANY SPECIAL LICENSE FROM AELB.
REMEMBER THORIUM DIOXIDE HAS A SPECIFIC ACTIVITY OF 3,585 Bq/g ! THE "WASTE" FROM LYNAS IS ONLY 6 Bq/g.
WHY ARE FOLKS FROM THE ANTI-LYNAS CAMP SO FRIGHTEN OF 6 Bq/g FROM LYNAS WASTE WHILE NOT WORRIED ABOUT THE 3,585 Bq/g OF RADIATION FROM THEIR KEROSENE LAMP ?
Dr Looi
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=0MFxBkxNX6g
http://kickdefella.net/2012/04/17/lynas-negligible-radiation-but-only-toxic-chemical-waste/#more-5242
THORIUM-232, THOROTRAST, RADIATION AND CANCER
ReplyDeleteI have known about the controversy of Thorotrast (a 25 cc vial of a 25% colloidal suspension of Thorium dioxide) since I was a medical student in Manchester about 45 years ago and in fact I have been collecting a fair amount of data with regards to this contrast media.
Thorotrast was given as a contrast media via the vein and the dose of Thorium used was huge, though this depends on the type of radiological procedure done.
It had been estimated that as many as 4 million people were given this contrast in the 1930 to late 1950s.
It has been claimed that there was an increase in the incidence of cancers especially of the liver.
However, we need to consider a number of factors before we can be sure that this is the real culprit.
1) The radiation dose from those old X-ray machines in the 1930 to 1950s are hundreds of times that of the present machines.
For instance an 1896 X-ray machine was tested and found to have exposed the body to 1,500 times more radiation than modern technology does, largely because each image took 90 minutes to develop, dramatically increasing the patient's cumulative exposure to the rays. By 1930 to 1950s, the radiation dose have improved a lot but still much higher than the present X-ray machines.
Modern day X-rays require only about 21 milliseconds, and technicians place lead coverings over the body to protect vital organs from even this slight exposure.
Even in the 60s, the dose of X-rays from Tuberculosis screening is about 100 times higher than that of today's Chest X-Ray.
The fluoroscope leaves the X-ray beam "on" while the physician does his examination and as such, the fluoroscope has the potential to deliver very high X-ray doses.
In the 1920s, fluoroscopy became very popular procedure not only among radiologists, but also among many kinds of physicians.
Radiological methods of diagnosis became so important that no investigation of a patient is considered complete without the X-rays, which generally include fluoroscopy. These studies are often carried out by a general practitioner or surgeon in his office.
In 1942, Dr. Franz Buschke and Herbert M. Parker wrote (Buschke 1942):
"Recently we became aware of the fact that apparently a number of pediatricians include fluoroscopy in the monthly routine examinations of infants in their care during the first and second years of life." This pediatric practice is confirmed in Pifer 1963 and in Blatz 1970.
After studying the radiation output of seven fluoroscopes in the offices of "reputable pediatricians selected at random," Buschke and Parker estimated (Buschke 1942, p.527): "If the average rapid fluoroscopy by an experienced and well-adapted examiner takes twenty seconds, about 8.3 roentgens [entrance dose] will be delivered at this rate or 100 roentgens during the first year of life." The roentgen is a dose-unit which is approximately equivalent to a rad (actually it is less as the ICRU defined the roentgen to be 2.58e -4 C/Kg in 1971).
cont.
cont.
ReplyDeleteFluoroscopy was popular also in hospitals.
(Braestrup 1942, p.213):
"During the past years, we have measured the roentgen output of large numbers of fluoroscopes, using the settings at which they are normally operated ... and have found a very wide variation ... Attention is called particularly to test B-116, where the R [roentgen] per minute at the panel was 127, that is, an erythema dose would be reached in about three minutes. Such a unit could be classified as a lethal diagnostic weapon and yet there are many of these still in use."
Of the various types of radiologic equipment, the mobile unit probably has been responsible for more radiation damage than any other piece of apparatus. These accidents have in most cases occurred while the mobile unit was used for fluoroscopy by surgeons, who apparently did not realize the high output obtained at short distances."
In an attempt to prevent some injuries, A LIMIT OF 100 ROENTGENS (1,000 mSv) per fluoroscopic examination was set in New York City hospitals (Braestrup 1969).
So the patients who received the Thorotrast were subjected to a huge dose of X-rays from these antique X-ray machines.
This huge dose of X-rays may be the cause of most of the cancers, we just do not know as most of the studies are unable to assess the X-ray's dose. All these studies are done 20 to 30 years later.
So we cannot use other patients who have X-rays done in the 1930s to 1950s as a control group since most X-rays which do not need a contrast media consist of only 1 or 2 X-ray pictures.
A few of the studies do have controls but these controls were cases from later years especially after 1947 when the advancement in radiological techniques and hence dosage reduction is greatest.
It is generally accepted that the risk of radiation induced cancer is 1 in 20,000 per mSv..
As such, a dose of 1,000 mSv would mean a risk of 1 in 20. For 4 million patients injected with Thorotrast, THIS RADIATION WOULD GIVE RISE TO 200,000 CASES OF RADIATION INDUCED CANCERS !
In 1953, Dade W. Moeller (then of the Public Health Service; later, president of the Health Physics Society) published an estimate that the average entrance dose per fluoroscopic examination was about 65 roentgens (650 mSv) at mid-century (Moeller 1953, pp.58-59).
The use of Thorotrast was discontinued by 1953.
2) The contrast studies are usually done for patients who are rather ill and may have multiple other disorders.
The cancers usually appear (as most cancers do) about 20 to 30 years later when the patients reach the "cancer" age. Because of this long lapse of cause and effect, all the studies are retrospective in nature.
And as you know, all retrospective studies are full of problems and inaccuracies.
3) A lot of these patients, have other disorders which may also lead to cancer like alcoholic cirrhosis and hepatitis B. In fact the first case of liver cancer I saw in Manchester was an old alcoholic with severe liver cirrhosis. But he also had Thorotrast contrast study more than 20 years earlier. Because of this history, the surgeon had to report him as a Thorotrast induced cancer.
4) With about 4 million by now old people, we are bound to come across a lot of cancer cases. So how many if any of these (taking into account all the above problems) are really caused by the radiation from the massive dose of intravenous Thorium-232... nobody can be really sure. If anybody says he can tell, then either he is lying or he does not know what he is saying.
Dato' Dr Looi Hoong Wah
FAMM, MB., ChB(Manchester), MRCS(England), MRCP(UK) MRCP(London)
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http://kickdefella.net/2012/04/17/lynas-negligible-radiation-but-only-toxic-chemical-waste/#more-5242
CONFUSION ON THE SPECIFIC ACTIVITY OF THORIUM-232 IN ONE OF THE LYNAS "WASTE" STREAM.....6.2 Bq/g or 62 Bq/g ?
ReplyDeleteIt looks like a lot of people do not have even the basic knowledge of radioactivity concentrations and the various methods of calculating the specific activity of the radionuclides, especially of the series radionuclide.
There are essentially two ways of doing this, one is old fashioned way which use the total activity and the other is the modern currently in use and internationally accepted one and this uses only the concentration of the "mother" radionuclide.
Old method: "Since each atom of Thorium-232 decays into 11 other atoms of other radionuclides (12 atoms involved), each Bq of Thorium-232 had been assumed to be multiplied by a factor of 10 (10 because the end result Lead-208 is considered non-radioactive though this may not be true as it still has a half life of 19 million billion years, and Bismuth-212 decays either into Polonium-212 or to Thallium-208 both of which then decay into Lead-208..so Po-212 and Tl-208 can be considered as 1 Bq only)."
Quote: International Radiation Safety Expert Nick Tsurikov:
" On this basis, if a material contains 400 parts per million of thorium – its specific activity is calculated as follows:
a) Outdated method – 400 x 4.09 (specific activity of Th-232) x 10 (number of radio nuclides in the thorium decay chain) = 16,360 Bq/kg, or 16.4 Bq/g
b) International standard (IAEA, AELB and Australia) – 400 x 4.09 = 1,630 Bq/kg, or 1.64 Bq/g."
Unquote.
The Anti-Lynas folk is now using this old fashion way of looking at specific activity to confuse the people.
Because of all this, they claim that the Lynas "waste" is not 6.2 Bq/g but 62 Bq/g and Lynas has been misleading the people about the radioactivity.
The truth is that nobody, except some of the Chinese in China still use this non-standard way of looking at specific activity of a series radionuclide.
The old method has been discontinued internationally since about 1997.
Actually, when we use the standard description "Lynas waste has only 6.2 Bq/g", we have already factored in the radiation from all the daughter radionuclides.
For instance, all the dose coefficients given by IAEA of 0.39 microSv/hr/Bq/g for radiation at 1 metre from a pile of Thorium, and by UNSCEAR of 0.604 microSv/hr/Bq/gm for radiation dose from an infinite field of Thorium DEMANDS THAT WE USE THE STANDARD WAY OF DESCRIBING SPECIFIC ACTIVITY i.e. 1 Bq of activity in both a series or single non-series decay means 1 atom of the "mother" radionuclide decaying.
So as far as the dosage in terms of biological effects is concerned, whether we use the standard 6.2 Bq/g or the old Chinese way of 62 Bq/g to describe the radioactivity of the Lynas "waste", there is NO DIFFERENCE, as, if we were to use the old Chinese 62 Bq/g, we will have to divide the IAEA and UNSCEAR coefficients by a factor of 10.
Dato' Dr Looi
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http://kickdefella.net/2012/04/17/lynas-negligible-radiation-but-only-toxic-chemical-waste/#more-5242
Anti-Lynas Quote: " Thorium from Lynas is Tenorm and a radioactive waste which has serious health risks."
ReplyDeleteDefinition of TENORM: Formal definition of TENORM by the National Academy of Sciences as:
"Technologically enhanced naturally occurring radioactive materials are any naturally occurring radioactive materials not subject to regulation under the Atomic Energy Act whose radionuclide concentrations or potential for human exposure have been increased above levels encountered in the natural state by human activities."
ORE FOR LYNAS PLANT = 1,600 ppm (parts per million)
2 MOST VOLUMINOUS LYNAS "WASTE" = 12 ppm
3rd RESIDUE STREAM = 1,500 ppm of Thorium
AVERAGE MALAYSIAN SOIL = 20 ppm OF THORIUM
SO HOW CAN YOU CALL THE LYNAS "WASTE" A TENORM ?
Nick Tsurikov, Radiation Safety Expert: " THE MAJORITY OF THIS LYNAS "WASTE" WILL HAVE ONLY HALF THE THORIUM THAN IN NORMAL MALAYSIAN SOIL.
So, in fact most of Lynas residues are only half as radioactive as the sand the kids all over Malaysia play in the kindergartens" (Note: Sand or crystalline SiO2 is also classified as a group 1 Carcinogen by IARC).
If you do look through the Lynas RIA together with UN (not IAEA) reports - you will clearly see that two most 'voluminous' residues from LAMP will have less than 12 parts per million of thorium - and the average Malaysian soil - 20 parts per million of thorium. Of course, the third 'residue stream' will have about 1500 ppm of thorium and will need to be managed appropriately
COMPARISON OF RADIOACTIVITY IN Bq (Specific activity.. number of atoms decaying in 1second)
Pure Thorium-232 = 4,080 Bq/gm
Pure Potassium-40 = 254,000 Bq/gm
Naturally Occurring Potassium (3 different isotopes) in our body and food = 31.825 Bq/gm
Artificially created Plutonium-238 = 634,000,000,000 Bq/gm (1/2 life=87.7 years)
Monazite ore from Amang or Tin Tailings in Malaysia = 284 Bq/gm
Lynas Rare Earth Waste = 6 Bq/gm
Quote: AELB (Atomic Energy Licensing Board, Malaysia):
Malaysia was the world's no. 1 producer of tin. Along with tin, there's always Thorium and Uranium and therefore this is not Malaysia's first facility, AELB is has experience to handle this, to overcome this and AELB is prepared.
THERE ARE MORE THAN 10 FACILITIES THAT ARE VERY SIMILAR TO LYNAS.
SOME OF THEM ARE PRODUCING HIGHER RESIDUES, HIGHER CONCENTRATION OF URANIUM AND THORIUM.
AELB has been able to regulate and control these factories, so it is based on AELB experience and the experience of the industry abroad." Unquote
QUESTION: WHY IS IT THAT THERE ARE NO DEMONSTRATIONS BY
THE ANTI-LYNAS FOOT-SOLDIERS AGAINST THESE 10 CHEMICAL
PLANTS ALREADY IN MALAYSIA THAT ARE PRODUCING "WASTES
WITH HIGHER CONCENTRATIONS OF URANIUM AND THORIUM"?
Dr Looi
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"La Rochelle, the 'Lynas of France"
ReplyDeleteMany would be surprised that La Rochelle has for decades been hosting a rare earths processing plant, similar to the one planned in Malaysia.
The La Rochelle facility, which belongs to France's Rhodia Group, has for years been operating like Lynas. Forty years to be exact. And there has been no adverse health and safety report in the tourist town.
The Rhodia company is an active player in the rare earths business. It is a leading processor of rare earths. In fact, it's the only fully integrated industrial player to have manufacturing operations and raw material supply both within and outside China.
The plant in La Rochelle has been in operation for more than 50 years.
In the early years, the plant processed rare earths ore concentrates from Australia and China just like Lynas would. For 40 years, the plant was operated in this manner, producing cerium for the world market.
The radioactive thorium residues have been stored within the plant's 40ha site for the past 50 years. During storage, the residues are regularly monitored by the country's regulatory authority, the equivalent of our Atomic Energy Licensing Board (AELB).
They believe the stored thorium salts will become a fuel of the future.
What is clear is that the rare earths processing facility in La Rochelle has been operating for more than five decades without harming the population. Instead, La Rochelle has thrived over the years as an attractive tourist destination not only for the French but also for holiday-makers from other European countries and even as far away as the United States.
Through the deployment of stringent health and safety standards, the chemical plant has been of no consequence to the local community.
Instead, it has contributed to the local economy not only in terms of job opportunities but also tax revenues.
After visiting La Rochelle, it beats me why there are still people who are so hung up on Lynas."Unquote
COMPARISON OF RADIOACTIVITY IN Bq (Specific activity.. number of atoms decaying in 1second)
Pure Thorium-232 = 4,080 Bq/gm
Pure Potassium-40 = 254,000 Bq/gm
Naturally Occurring Potassium (3 different isotopes) in our body and food = 31.825 Bq/gm
Artificially created Plutonium-238 = 634,000,000,000 Bq/gm (1/2 life=87.7 years)
Monazite ore from Amang or Tin Tailings in Malaysia = 284 Bq/gm
Lynas Rare Earth Waste = 6 Bq/gm
Quote: AELB (Atomic Energy Licensing Board, Malaysia):
Malaysia was the world's no. 1 producer of tin. Along with tin, there's always Thorium and Uranium and therefore this is not Malaysia's first facility, AELB is has experience to handle this, to overcome this and AELB is prepared.
THERE ARE MORE THAN 10 FACILITIES THAT ARE VERY SIMILAR TO LYNAS.
SOME OF THEM ARE PRODUCING HIGHER RESIDUES, HIGHER CONCENTRATION OF URANIUM AND THORIUM.
AELB has been able to regulate and control these factories, so it is based on AELB experience and the experience of the industry abroad." Unquote
QUESTION: WHY IS IT THAT THERE ARE NO DEMONSTRATIONS BY
THE ANTI-LYNAS FOOT-SOLDIERS AGAINST THESE 10 CHEMICAL
PLANTS ALREADY IN MALAYSIA THAT ARE PRODUCING "WASTES
WITH HIGHER CONCENTRATIONS OF URANIUM AND THORIUM"?
ANSWER: 100% PURE POLITICS FROM TOXIC RADIOACTIVE
POLITICIANS !
Dato' Dr Looi
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Quote: "The plant in La Rochelle is not like Lynas. They don't store the waste in their vicinity, the waste is stored in a facility specialized in disposing radioactive waste." Unquote.
ReplyDeleteANSWER:
The La Rochelle plant uses Monazite-(Ce)...(Ce, La, Nd, Th, Y)PO4 and this is by far the most common and most radioactive of the 3 types of monazite ore.
The other 2 types which are Monazite-(La) and Monazite-(Nd).
The monazite from Malaysian Tin tailings has 6 to 7% Thorium-232 and has an activity of 284 Bq/g.
WASTES
Until the end of 1974, THE PLANT RELEASED ALL RADIOACTIVE LIQUIDS AND SOLIDS DIRECTLY INTO THE SEA (WHERE LOCALS AS WELL AS TOURISTS ARE SWIMMING)!
Since, and until the end of 1990, it sent at least a part of the solid residues to the CSM. These wastes are composed, among other substances, of thorium 232, uranium 238, and their descendants (including radium 226 and 228).
SOLID WASTES
--A solid residue resulting from the processing prior to July 1994 and described by Andra as “Résidu solide banalisé” (RSB), solid residue made commonplace.
As of June 1999, 8025 tons (50% moisture) with an activity of 217 GBq were on the PLANT site. The thorium 232 in the DRY PRODUCT REPRESENTED 48 Bq/g AND THE URANIUM 238, 6 Bq/g MAKING A TOTAL OF 54 Bq/g.
Rhône-Poulenc placed 61,000 t of what Andra describes as RSB into a waste site located near its factory and belonging to the city of La Rochelle (Port de Pallice).
The residues contain in particular thorium 232 (48 Bq/g dry product) and uranium 238 (6 Bq/g dry product), for a total of 1.65 TBq [Andra 00].
--Radioactive minerals that have not been attacked. According to Andra, they have been used to fill in a part of the plant site;
--Substances in suspension, the only residue produced by the minerals used today. 10,048 t (50% moisture) containing thorium 232 (2.6 Bq/g ) and uranium 238 (4.7Bq/g) for a total of 37 GBq are stored at the plant;
--Tailings, containing thorium 232, uranium 238, and their descendents including radium.
They are more radioactive than the RSB (see above). They are located at Cadarache and presumably in the bay of La Rochelle. They were stored for a time at the CSM.
--Thorium nitrate and crude thorium hydroxide.
The 2000 inventory of Andra states in a footnote that it does not take into consideration some 11,000 t of thorium nitrate (mass activity 1650 Bq/g) and about 20,000 t of crude thorium hydroxide (mass activity 720 Bq/g), the “historic” residue of the processing prior to mid-1994, because these substances are “commercialized at present “by Rhodia Terres Rares.
The thorium nitrate is used in the manufacture of lamp sleeves; the hydroxide “is a potential raw material.”
Apparently these substances are stored at the site [Andra 99]. The 1997 inventory of Andra listed the hydroxide as a waste.
The waste thorium nitrate (mass activity 1650 Bq/g) has an activity which is 27,500% higher than the waste from Lynas which is only 6 Bq/g! Apparently these substances are stored at the site [Andra 99].
8,025 TONS OF WASTE WITH AN ACTIVITY OF 217 GBq were still stored in the compounds of the plant.
THIS "LOW RADIOACTICITY WASTE" has 48 Bq/g from Thorium 232 and 6 Bq/g from Uranium-238 giving a total of 54 Bq/g.
You have to realise that 54 Bq/g is 900% higher than that of the Lynas waste of 6 Bq/g.
And these wastes are still being stored in the compound of the plant.
IF THE FRENCH ARE NOT WORRIED ABOUT 54 Bq/g OF RADIOACTIVITY, WHY ARE SOME MALAYSIANS SO FRIGHTENED OF ONLY 6 Bq/g?
Answer: 100% pure politics from toxic radioactive politicians!
Dato' Dr Looi
A Mountain of Lynas Waste ?
ReplyDeleteA reader once asked " Would it be safe to say 132,000,000,000 Bq will be resulting from 22,000 tonnes of Lynas waste even though it has only 6 Bq per gm?"
Well, Thorium-232 produces only alpha rays (gamma rays from daughter isotopes are insignificant, please see below) which cannot pass through even a thin piece of paper or the surface of the skin.
If you have a lump of pure Thorium-232, all you need to do is to wrap it up in newspaper and that will stop all the alpha radiation from getting out!
Since alpha particles of Thorium-232 which decay with energies of 3.8 to about 4.8 MeV can travel only a couple of centimetres in air, only less than 50 micron in fluids and much less in solid material, even if you have a huge pile of Lynas waste, the external radiation would not increase by much because only a tiny percentage of thorium-232 atoms directly on the surface of the pile will be able to radiate out their alpha particles.
Those just below the surface will remain inside the pile. Each alpha particle will just pick up 2 electrons and be converted to the simple non-radioactive helium gas.
Even those alpha particles from the surface will be converted to harmless helium gas after a few centimetres through the air.
So all that your mountain of Lynas waste will only "radiate" harmless non-radioactive Helium gas.
That's why I always tell the anti-lynas folks that I have no problem in keeping a few hundred kilograms of pure Thorium-232 in my house. Because I would be keeping the Thorium-232 in the form of a solid metallic sphere where the surface area to unit volume is minimum and since metallic Thorium-232 is superb radiation shield, practically all the tiny amount of radiation produced, are auto-shielded by the metallic Thorium-232 ! Radiation risk from pure Thorium-232 is minute and keeping it in a the form of a metallic sphere and wrapping it up in newspaper would cut the radiation to a completely harmless level !
The radiation of 6 Bq/gm from the weakly radioactive Thorium-232 in the Lynas waste is so low that even IAEA do not consider it significant and as such can be transported without any special permission.
One reader stated that although Thorium-232 may not be dangerous, all their "daughter" isotopes have very short half-lives like Radon-220 and these are highly radioactive, so how could we say that Thorium-232 is not dangerous.
Well, the reason is obvious. But I find great difficulty in explaining to the layman the reason why when an element with an extremely long half-life that decays into isotopes with very short half-life, there is minimal accumulation of the short half-life isotopes and as such do not build up into a large enough quantity to pose any significant hazard.
I will try to explain by this simple analogy.
If there are 2 million people waiting outside a stadium and 1 million people managed to get into the stadium after 14,000,000,000 years (half-life of Thorium-232), it means that you will see only 1 person getting into the stadium every 14,000 years.
But once in the stadium the half-life of the new person (half-life of Radon-220 from the Thorium-232 decay chain is only 55 seconds) is so short when compared with those outside (Thorium-232) that he has left the stadium almost immediately. Getting in is extremely slow but getting out is extremely fast!
Since only 1 person gets into the stadium every 14,000 years, if you look into the stadium you will see it as empty most of the time!
It is just like trying to fill up a bucket by a slow, slow drop by drop drip and the bucket has a big hole at the bottom. If you look into the bucket you will see practically little or no water in it!
Since the Lynas waste product has only 6 Bq/gm of radioactivity, the chance of detecting any significant amount of radon gas is pretty slim indeed.
Dato' Dr Looi
"Odysess Sin Ner >>...........I am interested to know how does 64,000 tons/annum of acidic thorium will behave in a swampy, wet and leaky condition. Please do not divert the topic and talk about politics that thorium is not soluble. This is truly a coward act and deceiving saying. People is talking about fact but you are mentioning about politics. Oh ya... it is pricking your bone isn't it? Step up like a man and quench my keen to know as my statement says." Unquote
ReplyDeleteAnswer:
The figure of 64,000 tons per year of Thorium alleged to be produced by the Lynas plant is too ridiculous to be true.
Let's see...
The Lynas ore from Mount Weld contains less than 1,600 ppm (parts per million of Thorium) so:
1,600 tons of Thorium = 1,000,000 tons of Ore.
64,000 tons of Thorium = 64,000 x 1 million divided by 1,600
= 40,000,000 tons of Ore !!
WHERE ON EARTH IS LYNAS GOING TO FIND THE SHIPS TO CARRY 40,000,000 TONS OF ORE PER YEAR FROM AUSTRALIA TO KUANTAN !!
IF A GIANT LORRY COULD CARRY 4 TONS, WE NEED 10,000,000 LORRY LOADS TO CARRY THE ORE FROM THE PORT TO THE PLANT !
THIS IS THE TYPE OF GROSS EXAGGERATION THAT IS VERY TYPICAL OF THE ANTI-LYNAS FOLK.
Actually, Lynas is expected to produce about 820,000 tons of WLP in the 1st 10 years of operation or 82,000 tons of WLP per year.
The WLP (Water Leached Purification) contains less than 1,600 ppm or 0.16 % of Thorium-232.
As such we would expect to get only 0.0016 x 82,000 tons of Thorium per year i.e.131 tons of Thorium per year AND NOT 64,000 TONS OF THORIUM PER YEAR !
This magical transformation of 131 tons of Thorium into 64,000 tons of Thorium reminds me of this joke:
"For normal people 1 + 1 = 2 but for those people in the Share Market 1 + 1 = 11,"
AND OF COURSE, FOR THE ANTI-LYNAS FOLK, 131 = 64,000 !
Dato' Dr Looi.
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If you really want ABSOLUTELY NO POLLUTION,
ReplyDeleteClose Down All Our Factories, Industrial Plants, Power Plants, Oil Rigs etc, and Become a 4th World Country and
Send Our Daughters and Granddaughters To Myanmar and Kampuchea to Work as Domestic Servants!
I have always maintained that the main problem is not radiation but the normal chemical toxic wastes from a normal chemical plant.
I agree that there is also a fear that the waste will be dumped all over the place. Unfortunately, this risk also apply to all our factories and plants.
Should we demand that all our factories and plants to be closed down so that we can go back to the good old days of tapping rubber and plucking oconuts?
And why is it that we only target Lynas and not the rest of all our factories and industrial plants which produce far more toxic wastes especially our own oil palm mills and tin mining and smelting industries?
Using the same logic we should ask all these plants to send all their wastes back to Germany, England, US etc. I bet with you nobody would want to invest in Malaysia.
Quote Ng Ai Soo
"And what about other pollution and/or radiation sources in the environment before Lynas even starts.
For example, a 1,000MW coal plant after just 1 year of operation produces 6,000,000 tons of CO2, 44,000 tons of SO2, 22,000 tons of NO2, 320,000 tons of ash containing 400 tons of heavy metals (arsenic, mercury, cadmium, lead etc.) and, here’s the kicker, including 5 tons of Uranium and 12 tons of Thorium from which the radon gas of both decay chains are out the chimney and into our air...
And we are building TWO of these now to add to those we already have on the peninsula." Unquote.
(Quote from Scientific American)
"In fact, the fly ash emitted by a power plant—a by-product from burning coal for electricity—carries into the surrounding environment 100 times more radiation than a nuclear power plant producing the same amount of energy." (Quote from Scientific American)"
Dato' Dr Looi.
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What Benefit Do Malaysia Get From The Lynas Plant?
ReplyDeleteEven a primary school child should know that the construction of a multi-billion dollar industrial plant would bring enormous financial benefits to the local community as well as to the country.
Construction of the plant had provided a substantial boost to suppliers of commodities like concrete and steel and manufacturers of hundreds of other components. For example, the plant had used thousands of cubic metres of concrete—as well as
• Thousands of tons of steel and miles of piping
• Hundreds of miles of electric wiring and hundreds of electrical components and all these are supplied by our local contractors.
The construction of the plant itself would had added hundreds of millions to the gross domestic product.
Each year, the plant will generate billions in sales of the rare earth (economic output) and millions more in total labour income. These figures include both direct and secondary effects. The direct effects reflect the plant’s expenditures for goods, services and labour. The secondary effects include subsequent spending attributable to the presence of the plant and its employees as plant expenditures filter through the local economy (e.g., restaurants and shops buying goods and hiring employees).
And the subsequent production of the plant is expected to be in the
billions of ringgit and this is considered to be part of the country's gross
domestic product (GDP). Billions more would be added to the GDP as a
result of the spin-off effect.
Since the billions of dollars worth of rare earth exports will be considered part of our export statistics, our exports and trade surplus will also increase by the billions.
And when our GDP is increased by the billions, the government will be
allowed to print more billions of ringgit (CREATING MONEY OUT OF
THIN AIR ) to pay for the schools, hospitals, subsidies and scholarships
etc for the people, without any devaluation of our ringgit by the
foreigners.
Key Facts
• Each year, the plant will generate millions to billions of ringgit as a spin-off effect in sales of goods and services in the local community and millions more in total labour income.
• Operation of the plant creates more than 350 highly paid permanent jobs. These jobs pay much more than those working the super markets or places like Kentucky Fried Chicken.
• The permanent jobs at the plant create an equivalent number of additional jobs in the local area to provide the goods and services necessary to support the plant work force (e.g., grocery stores, dry cleaners, car dealers). Even the sex workers in Kuantan would benefit!
• Construction of the new plant had created up to thousands of jobs at peak construction.
•
• Local contractors had benefited enormously from the construction of the plant, in terms of hundreds of millions of ringgit
•
• The yearly production of billions of ringgit of rare earth will add billions to our GDP and produce billions in export earnings (even though the money belongs to Lynas share holders, the national statistics will show up as our own in terms of GDP growth and export growth).
THE ECONOMIC JOB MULTIPLIER EFFECT OF ANY INDUSTRIAL PLANT
IS ABOUT 4 TO 8.. So although the Lynas plant gives direct employment to
350 high paying jobs to the Kampong folks, THE ACTUAL NUMBER OF
JOBS CREATED IS MORE THAN IN THE REGION OF 1,750 !
What Benefit Do Malaysia Get From The Lynas Plant?
ReplyDeleteEven a primary school child should know that the construction of a multi-billion dollar industrial plant would bring enormous financial benefits to the local community as well as to the country.
Construction of the plant had provided a substantial boost to suppliers of commodities like concrete and steel and manufacturers of hundreds of other components. For example, the plant had used thousands of cubic metres of concrete—as well as
• Thousands of tons of steel and miles of piping
• Hundreds of miles of electric wiring and hundreds of electrical components and all these are supplied by our local contractors.
The construction of the plant itself would had added hundreds of millions to the gross domestic product.
Each year, the plant will generate billions in sales of the rare earth (economic output) and millions more in total labour income. These figures include both direct and secondary effects. The direct effects reflect the plant’s expenditures for goods, services and labour. The secondary effects include subsequent spending attributable to the presence of the plant and its employees as plant expenditures filter through the local economy (e.g., restaurants and shops buying goods and hiring employees).
And the subsequent production of the plant is expected to be in the
billions of ringgit and this is considered to be part of the country's gross
domestic product (GDP). Billions more would be added to the GDP as a
result of the spin-off effect.
Since the billions of dollars worth of rare earth exports will be considered part of our export statistics, our exports and trade surplus will also increase by the billions.
And when our GDP is increased by the billions, the government will be
allowed to print more billions of ringgit (CREATING MONEY OUT OF
THIN AIR ) to pay for the schools, hospitals, subsidies and scholarships
etc for the people, without any devaluation of our ringgit by the
foreigners.
Key Facts
• Each year, the plant will generate millions to billions of ringgit as a spin-off effect in sales of goods and services in the local community and millions more in total labour income.
• Operation of the plant creates more than 350 highly paid permanent jobs. These jobs pay much more than those working the super markets or places like Kentucky Fried Chicken.
• The permanent jobs at the plant create an equivalent number of additional jobs in the local area to provide the goods and services necessary to support the plant work force (e.g., grocery stores, dry cleaners, car dealers). Even the sex workers in Kuantan would benefit!
• Construction of the new plant had created up to thousands of jobs at peak construction.
•
• Local contractors had benefited enormously from the construction of the plant, in terms of hundreds of millions of ringgit
•
• The yearly production of billions of ringgit of rare earth will add billions to our GDP and produce billions in export earnings (even though the money belongs to Lynas share holders, the national statistics will show up as our own in terms of GDP growth and export growth).
THE ECONOMIC JOB MULTIPLIER EFFECT OF ANY INDUSTRIAL PLANT
IS ABOUT 4 TO 8.. So although the Lynas plant gives direct employment to
350 high paying jobs to the Kampong folks, THE ACTUAL NUMBER OF
JOBS CREATED IS MORE THAN IN THE REGION OF 1,750 !
Why do we have to give Lynas the 12 yrs tax free incentive?
ReplyDeleteQuote Optiplex330:
"Giving tax break is very common to entice people to set up business. If you are an Indian or Chinese your forebear coming from India or China know that very well. They were enticed to come to Malaysia to open up the country, and land were practically given free.
Old people told me their land rental is a single pepper corn. Those who don't know about tax break know zero about businesses. Having said that, I think the maximum is 10 yrs so Lynas is unusual in that it is given 12 years.
A classic example: Businesses have to give Bumi 30% share but when Intel came to Penang, they were allowed SPECIAL treatment and don't have to give a single share to Bumi (may be this explain the extra 2 yrs tax break?).
Why? This is because the government badly wanted Intel because when they come, they will bring along an entire electronic industry to Malaysia.
So while government do not directly benefited from Intel, the follow on industry created by Intel greatly benefited Malaysia.
And also for this reason, those who think Lynas produces only about 300 jobs and no tax revenue for Malaysia are just being short sighted. They don't know that because of Lynas, a Green Technology industry could be born and Siemens is the 1st to announce coming precisely because of Lynas.
But because of Anti-Lynas, Siemens may pull out so there go more jobs and tax revenue for Malaysia."
In Other Words, The Plant WILL Boost Local and Country's Economy.
The Lynas plant WILL provide substantial economic benefits during the decades of operation.
The jobs, employee's taxes, and direct and secondary spending WILL strengthen the economy.
SO DO NOT ASK THE NON-PHYSICAL and RATHER CHILDISH QUESTION OF WHAT BENEFIT DO MALAYSIA GET FROM THE LYNAS PLANT!
Dato' Dr Looi
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ReplyDeleteDO YOU KNOW THAT EVEN COFFEE HAS A RADIOACTIVITY OF 1,000 Bq/Kg?
And yet:
According to recent research, Coffee is good for you:
Quote: "Mental and Medical Benefits of Coffee:
From Medscape:
The best part of waking up...is reducing your risk of neurodegeneration. And depression, and cancer, and cardiovascular disease... It's becoming increasingly clear that coffee is more than just a morning routine.
...
The body of data suggesting that the world's most widely used stimulant is beneficial in a variety of mental and medical conditions is growing at a staggering rate.
A recent study published in the New England Journal of Medicine found that COFFEE CONSUMPTION LOWERED ALL-CAUSE MORTALITY BY OVER 10% AT 13 YEAR FOLLOW-UP." Unquote
According to Shakespeare,
"ALCOHOL PROVOKES THE DESIRE BUT TAKES
AWAY THE PERFORMANCE"....... WHEREAS COFFEE
EVOKES THE DESIRE AND REINSTATES YOUR
PREVIOUS MAGNIFICENT PERFORMANCE !
SO DRINK MORE COFFEE AND FORGET ABOUT THE
RADIATION.
Dato' Dr Looi Hoong Wah
FAMM, MB., ChB(Manchester), MRCS(England), MRCP(UK), MRCP(London)
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Quote: " I dare you to look at the eyes of Bukit Merah victims and Gebeng people and tell them that everything is okay." Unquote
ReplyDeleteOf course I would dare to look into their eyes ........... and tell them that they are being made used of by very unscrupulous, irresponsible and despicable people who exploit their misfortune for DIRTY POLITICAL GAINS !
For God's sake, the ultra-modern Lynas Rare Earth Chemical plant is not Bukit Merah.
THESE DEMORALIZED, DESPERATE, DEBUNKED AND INTELLECTUALLY DESTITUTE ANTI-LYNAS DEMONS are still DESPERATELY AND REPEATEDLY PARROTING THE MISLEADING MISINFORMATION AND ASKING NONSENSICAL QUESTIONS THAT THEIR DEVIOUS BRAINY BRAINWASHER'S DEMONIC BRAIN HAS PERMANENTLY AND IRREVOCABLY INGRAINED INTO THEIR BRAINLESS BRAINWASHED BRAINS.
I AM REALLY NAUSEATED AND SAD THAT THERE ARE
HUMANS OR RATHER JUST OVERZEALOUS ZOMBIES IN THIS WORLD WHO WOULD RUN DOWN THEIR OWN COUNTRY BY CREATING A SCAPEGOAT IN AN ULTRA-MODERN CHEMICAL PLANT JUST FOR THE SAKE OF ENABLING THEIR MASTER BRAINWASHER TO GAIN A FEW EXTRA FILTHY VOTES IN THE COMING GENERAL ELECTION.
DO THEY CARE 2 HOOTS ABOUT THE 1,750 PEOPLE DIRECTLY OR INDIRECTLY EMPLOYED BY LYNAS AND WHOSE SALARIES OR INCOME ARE NEEDED TO PUT FOOD ON THE TABLES FOR THEIR FAMILIES TO SURVIVE?
DO THEY CARE WHETHER THESE POOR HARD WORKING INNOCENT FELLOW HUMANS HAVE A JOB AND A HOME AND FOOD FOR THEIR CHILDREN ?
ALL THEY THINK ABOUT IS TO DESTROY LYNAS AND STOP THE CONSTRUCTION ANY NEW PROJECTS WHICH PROVIDE JOBS, SHELTER, FOOD AND A DECENT LIFE FOR THE POOR PEOPLE..........WHILE THEY THEMSELVES HAVE A COZY JOB, SHELTER AND PLENTY OF FOOD FOR THEIR CHILDREN.
IF THESE BRAINWASHED ZOMBIES ARE SO CARING, WHY DON'T THEY PROVIDE THE JOBS AND PROVIDE THE FOOD AND SHELTER FOR THE POOR PEOPLE INSTEAD OF JUST EMPTY TALK !
In Bukit Merah, the radiation comes from Thorium and Uranium which are our own and has been in Malaysia for billions of years.
Although the radiation level is well over 37 times that of the Lynas waste, there is no definite well controlled scientific proof that the cases of leukaemia and birth defects are caused by radiation from the waste.
COMPARISON OF RADIOACTIVITY IN Bq (Specific activity.. number of atoms decaying in 1second)
Pure Thorium-232 = 4,080 Bq/gm
Pure Potassium-40 = 254,000 Bq/gm
Naturally Occurring Potassium (3 different isotopes) in our body and food = 31.825 Bq/gm
Artificially created Plutonium-238 = 634,000,000,000 Bq/gm (1/2 life=87.7 years)
Monazite ore from Amang or Tin Tailings in Malaysia = 284 Bq/gm
Lynas Rare Earth Waste = 6 Bq/gm
Public dose limits for exposure from uranium mining or nuclear plants are usually set at 1 mSv per year above background.
According to the National Council on Radiation Protection and Measurement (NCRP) and its international counterpart, the International Commission on Radiological Protection (ICRP). Both of these organizations offer recommendations for the maximum permissible dose (MPD) of radiation.
General Public annual MPD by both NCRP and ICRP is 1 mSv.
For Radiation Workers, the annual MPD is 50 mSv (NCRP) and 20 mSv (ICRP), with a cumulative MPD of 10 mSv x Age.
MPD during pregnancy is 5 mSv (NCRP) and 2 mSv (ICRP).
However, experts including Professor Wade Allison of Oxford University argue that the dose limit can safely be raised to 100 millisieverts, based on current health statistics.
Compare this with the dose of 0.002 millisieverts/year of exposure for people living within 1 km of the Lynas plant in the worst case scenario (estimated by Lynas).
cont.
cont.
ReplyDeleteI have seen lots of cases of leukaemia and other types of cancer as well as birth defects over the last 40 years or so and unfortunately we do not have Lynas around at that time to use as a scapegoat.
Unscrupulous people have been using videos and pictures of patients with congenital abnormalities and other illnesses to instil fear into the population. There is absolutely no scientific proof that these cases are caused by radiation.
Only people with ulterior motives would use pictures and videos of these unfortunate patients whose disorders have nothing to do with radiation to score political points!
In the south of the state of Kerala in India the soil contains as much as 4,000 ppm (parts of Thorium per million). Studies have shown that there is little or no accumulation of Thorium-232 in the inhabitants.
The Lynas waste contains only 1,650 ppm.
It has been estimated that in the worst case scenario, the radiation risk within a 1 km radius from the Lynas plant is only 0.002 mSv/yr.
In Ramsar, Iran, the naturally occurring radiation
is extremely high at 260 mSv/yr.
This is 13,000,000% higher than the expected worse case scenario in Kuantan.
And the people in Ramsar, Iran has been found to be healthier and live longer than the rest of the Iranians! There is also no increase in the number of cancer cases.
Remember the Tin slag from the Eastern Smelting and Straits Trading in Penang ? These, which contain the tantalum and monazite ore, and the monazite ore can be more than 3,700 % more radioactive than the Lynas waste.
And these radioactive tin slag were used to fill up the old Penang Stadium and the roads in Penang. A lot of these has already been stolen and sold off at a huge profit, but a lot still remains in the roads in Butterworth and Penang island.
The people in Penang have not developed Cancer so far as a result of these slag!
The anti-Lynas people who are so paranoid about imported radiation from Australia should have a look at the paper published in the Malaysian Journal of Analytical Sciences which showed that the level of radiation in areas where tin was mined. The waste or amang contains high levels of Monazite and other minerals which are highly radioactive.
All these old tin mine areas are well populated. Note even Kuala Lumpur is also an ex-tin mining area.
A study was done University Technology MARA in Kg Gajah in Perak :
Quote: " The level of surface dose varies from one location to another, but there is a critical area which has a significantly high surface dose approaching 30 microSv/hr " Unquote
30 microSv/hr is about 260 mSv/year or about the same level as the highest recorded area in Ramsar!.
Even ordinary Sand (crystalline silica, SiO2) is classified as a group 1 Carcinogen (a confirmed cancer causing agent), but as you know, we do not expect a huge number of people in living in the deserts or along the seashores to die from silica induced lung cancer.
The lung cancer risk occurs only when fine sand (silica) is inhaled by miners for a prolonged period in the quarries and mines i.e. silica is not a carcinogen when ingested and of course not when injected for nobody would allow you to inject sand into their veins.
Thorium-232 is a very weakly radioactive substance and produces only alpha particles which cannot even penetrate a thin piece of paper.
All you have to do is to wrap it up in a piece of newspaper and it is for all intents and purposes, non-radioactive !
" Thorium-232 is considered to be a carcinogen only IF ADMINISTERED INTRAVENOUSLY AS A COLLOIDAL DISPERSION OF THORIUM-232 DIOXIDE."
It is not considered to be a cancer causing substance if taken orally or inhaled according to the International Agency for Research on Cancer IARC, just like silica (sand) which is not carcinogenic if ingested.
Dato' Dr Looi
"Radiation from the LAMP will be no more than 2 microSieverts per year for members of the public who live within 1 km from the plant."
ReplyDeleteQuote: "Thorium-232 do not produce any gamma rays, but it's daughter radionuclides do produce the dangerous penetrating gamma rays" Unquote
Pure freshly separated Thorium-232 has only a slight alpha activity. There is no beta radiation and only a slight amount of gamma radiation (from the 0.09-MeV gamma rays which emanate from Th-228 decay).
However, the activity from the Th-228 side of the chain is quickly re-established. A first equilibrium state is reached in about 36 days (10 half-lives of Ra-224).
Activity then declines, as Th-228 decays faster than it is replenished by decaying Ac-228. About 3 years after separation, the activity is lower than at any other time except just after isolation.
Activity then increases until the second equilibrium state is reached in about 60 years or so.
Thorium-232 with all its daughter radionuclides
Total alpha energy = 36.2 MeV per nuclear decay
Total Gamma energy = 3.40 MeV per nuclear decay
Total Beta energy = 5.95 MeV per nuclear decay
Since the Lynas waste has 6 Bq/gm of activity, 1 KILOGRAM would have 6,000 Bq and that will produce 20,400 MeV of gamma ray energy from all the daughter radionuclides at equilibrium.
20,400 MeV from 1 kg of Lynas waste = 0.0000000007808 calories or 0.000000003268 joules.
This amount of gamma ray energy from 1 KILOGRAM of Lynas waste is not enough to tickle the backside of even a tiny little newborn caterpillar!
The total alpha energy is much larger i.e. 36.2 MeV but since alpha radiation does not pose an external threat and Thorium in clay soil is not absorbed, and since inhalation only affects miners, it is not a problem either for the Kuantan folks. But it may be a problem for those poor Australian miners in Mount Weld in Western Australia.
So, the Australians are the ones getting the wrong side of the deal!
Dust particles can get deep into the lungs only if they are very small i.e. much less than 10 micron. The particles that are less than 5 microns are the ones which can get deep into the alveoli of the lungs. Larger ones are trapped by the mucus in the nose and upper respiratory tract and are coughed out or sneezed out.
cont.
cont.
ReplyDeleteParticles of less than 5 microns can only be found in the Thorium and Uranium mines where powerful machines are used or where there is combustion.
Since alpha radiation cannot go far (the 4.0 MeV alpha particle from Thorium-232 decay can travel only 27.8 microns in water), even if you have a huge pile of Lynas waste, the external radiation would not increase by much because only the tiny percentage of thorium-232 atoms directly on the surface of the pile will be able to radiate out their alpha particles.
Those just below the surface will remain inside the pile and be converted to simple helium gas and those on the surface will travel only 2.54 cm into the air, picks up 2 electrons and become the harmless Helium for you to fill up your balloon.
The beta particles which are electrons (electricity = flow of electrons) do not pose an external threat either. There are lots more high voltage electrons on your clothing as static electricity when you stay in a dry air-condition room than from the waste.
Only gamma rays from your mountain of Lynas waste from less than 45 cm deep (depending on the type of soil and the water content) are able to see the light of day, as those deeper than that will be blocked by the layer of soil from getting out. And as shown above the amount of gamma rays are insignificant.
When the mother radionuclide has an extremely long half life and the daughters have very short half life, there is very little accumulation of the short half life daughters.
For instance, I did a quick calculation and found that the concentration of the daughter radionuclides is negligible e.g. there is only 1 atom of Radium 224 for every 1.4 trillion atoms of Thorium-232 at equilibrium (I stand to be corrected).
As far as radon gas is concerned, it must be remembered that Radon-220 from the decay chain of Thorium-232 has a very short half life of only 55 seconds!
As such only a tiny amount of Radon-220 (a.k.a. Thoron) within a few centimetres of the surface of a huge pile of waste will be able to live long enough to escape from the pile and see the light of day!
A lot of people have mistaken Radon-220 from Thorium-232 decay series with the more notorious Radon-222 which has a much longer half life of 3.8 days. Radon-222 comes from Uranium-238 decay series.
Because of its much longer half life, Radon-222 can and do accumulate in the cellars and poorly ventilated areas of domestic dwellings. Radon-222 is the gas that has been linked to lung cancers in especially non-smokers.
So please do not blame poor Thorium-232. It does not produce any Radon-222 and as such is not guilty of radon induced lung cancers.
SO WHAT'S THE BIG RADIATION PROBLEM?
Dato' Dr Looi
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=RPOGzrqu1Vg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjT1kUAy_08&feature=player_detailpage
http://kickdefella.net/2012/04/17/lynas-negligible-radiation-but-only-toxic-chemical-waste/#more-5242
EVEN YOUR WIFE IS RADIOACTIVE!
ReplyDeleteDo Not Be too Paranoid about Radiation for Radiation is Everywhere.
Even our DNA is radioactive as the highly radioactive Carbon-14 which constitute a part of the DNA molecule undergoes beta decay by emission of an electron and an antineutrino and changes into Nitrogen-14.
So even our sacred DNA changes with time as a result of this intrinsic radioactivity.
The potassium tablets that your doctor gives you as an adjunct for high blood pressure therapy is highly radioactive with a radioactivity of 32 Bq/gm and we need about 2 to 3 grams of potassium per day to stay alive.
The radioactivity comes from potassium-40. This is more than 500% the radioactivity of the Lynas waste which contains only 6 Bq/gm mainly from Thorium-232.
Potassium when taken stays in the intracellular space where the cancer sensitive chromosomes are located whereas the ingested or inhaled Thorium-232 remains in the extracellular (outside the cell) space.
All the potassium that we eat everyday in our food contains potassium-40 and the normal dietary potassium would give a total of about 80 Bq per day.
Compare this with the Lynas waste which produces only 6 Bq/gm
Even your wife or husband is radioactive, with a radioactivity of 4,400 Bq from Potassium-40 and another 3,000 Bq from Carbon-14 giving a total of about 7,400 Bq!
The internal radiation from Potassium-40 and Carbon-14 give a total exposure of 0.40 mSv/year and this is 200 times that of exposure dose from Lynas worst case scenario within a 1 km radius of the plant.
Sleeping next to someone (i.e. your wife or husband) for 8 hours a day will lead to an exposure of 0.02 mSv/year (Source: UNSCEAR and EPA) i.e. 10x that of Lynas worst case scenario.
Since all living cells contain potassium, all types of meat, flesh, fruits, nuts and vegetables are radioactive because of the potassium-40 content.
The so-called sodium free salt recommended by health experts to combat high blood pressure is nothing more than just highly radioactive potassium salt! Even a lot of doctors, specialists and professors do not know this!
The message here is that more radioactive substances are freely sold in the shops and used as a fertilizer or eaten by us than you would otherwise thought.
Dr. Gary H. Kramer, who is the Head of the National Internal Radiation Assessment Section at Health Canada:
“Potassium chloride can be found in large quantities in stores selling materials for water treatment. The potassium content is about 500 g kg-
Typically, the material is sold in 20 kg bags so each bag contains ~600 kBq of 40K giving a concentration of 30 Bq g-1. This is well above the exclusion level yet the material is handled as non-radioactive. The external dose rate in close proximity to a typical display in these types of shops would be about 150 microSv hr-1.
A worker would only need to be near the pile for about 7 hours to exceed the public dose limit of 1 mSv.”
cont
cont
ReplyDeleteThe anti-Lynas people who are so paranoid about imported radiation from Australia should have a look at the paper published in the Malaysian Journal of Analytical Sciences which showed that the level of radiation in areas where tin was mined. The waste or amang contains high levels of Monazite and other minerals which are highly radioactive.
All these old tin mine areas are well populated. Note even Kuala Lumpur is also an ex-tin mining area.
A study was done University Technology MARA in Kg Gajah in Perak :
Quote: " The level of surface dose varies from one location to another, but there is a critical area which has a significantly high surface dose approaching 30 microSv/hr " Unquote
30 microSv/hr is about 260 mSv/year or about the same level as the highest recorded area in Ramsar !.
AVERAGE MALAYSIAN SOIL = 20 ppm OF THORIUM
Monazite ore from Amang or Tin Tailings in Malaysia = 284 Bq/gm
Lynas Rare Earth Waste = 6 Bq/gm (about 1,600 ppm)
Guarapari which has a population about 100,000 is a coastal town in Brazil.
Every year, many people visit the beach with black sand in this town for swimming and treatment of rheumatic disorders.
The usual beach sand in Guarapari has a radiation dose of 5 microsievert/hour.
The black sand is even higher with 131 microsievert/hour. Average radiation exposure of Guarapari is 175 milisievert/year.
The radioactivity is originated from the mountains rich in zirconites and monazites along the coast.
Ramsar is a city in Iran with population of more than 31,000. The average dose of radiation received by people in Ramsar is about 10 milisievert/year, and can reach level in excess of 260 milisievert/year.
Most of the radiation in the area is due to dissolved Radium-226 in water of 9 hot springs along with smaller amounts of uranium and thorium due to travertine (limestone) deposits.
Kerala is a coastal belt in India. A study conducted in 1990 covered 76,000 households in 12 local councils of Karunagapally.
The radiation at Karunagapally has been assessed at 5 to 8 milisievert/year. In certain location on the coast, it is as high as 70 milisievert/year. Thorium was mined in this area from monazites.
Quote from Wikipedia: "This high level of radiation does not seem to have caused ill effects on the residents of the area and even possibly has made them slightly more radioresistant, which is puzzling and has been called "radiation paradox". It has also been reported that residents have healthier and longer lives.
On the basis of this and other evidence including the fact that life had originated in a much more irradiated environment, some scientists have questioned the validity of linear no-threshold model, on which all radiation regulations currently depend.
Others point out that some level of radiation might actually be good for health and have a positive effect on population based on the controversial radiation hormesis model, by jump starting DNA repair mechanisms inside the cell. "
Dato' Dr Looi Hoong Wah
FAMM, MB., ChB(Manchester), MRCS(England), MRCP(UK), MRCP(London)
*
http://kickdefella.net/2012/04/17/lynas-negligible-radiation-but-only-toxic-chemical-waste/#more-5242
Why do you say that Radiation from the Lynas plant is not significant?
ReplyDeleteHERE ARE SOME INFORMATION ON THORIUM-232
Thoriun-232 is the only weakly radioactive element found in the Lynas waste product.
Thorium-232 decay produces only alpha particles which can be stopped by a piece of thin paper and cannot penetrate even the outer layer of the human skin, whereas potassium-40 in our normal diet produces the highly dangerous gamma and beta rays from all the 3 types of beta decay, i.e. electron emission, electron capture and positron emission.
A typical 5.5 MeV alpha particle can be expected to travel less than 0.005 cm in body fluids.
THE LONGER THE HALF-LIFE OF A SUBSTANCE THE LESS IS THE RADIOACTIVITY and as such the less dangerous it is.
As a simple analogy, if it takes 14,000,000,000 years for half of a house to be burnt, there is no chance of anybody getting hurt. But if it takes only 14 minutes for half of the house to be burnt down, a lot of people will be injured or killed.
Thorium-232 which is the only significant radioactive element found in the Lynas waste has an incredibly long half-life of 14 billion years and as such is much less radioactive than the Potassium-40 whose half-life is only 1.25 billion years.
COMPARISON OF RADIOACTIVITY IN Bq (Specific activity.. number of atoms decaying in 1second)
Pure Thorium-232 = 4,080 Bq/gm
Pure Potassium-40 = 254,000 Bq/gm
Naturally Occurring Potassium (3 different isotopes) in our body and food = 31.825 Bq/gm
Artificially created Plutonium-238 = 634,000,000,000 Bq/gm (1/2 life=87.7 years)
Monazite ore from Amang or Tin Tailings in Malaysia = 284 Bq/gm
Lynas Rare Earth Waste = 6 Bq/gm
It has been estimated that in the worst case scenario, the radiation risk from the Lynas plant is only 0.002 mSv/yr.
In Ramsar, Iran, the naturally occurring radiation
is extremely high at 260 mSv/yr. This is 13,000,000%higher than the expected worse case scenario in Kuantan.
And the people in Ramsar, Iran has been found to be healthier and live longer than the rest of the Iranians! There is also no increase in the number of cancer cases.
In the south western area of Kerala state in India, the Thorium-232 in the soil is as high as 4,000 parts per million as compared to the Lynas waste which has only 1,650 parts per million.
And studies have shown that the population which have been living all their lives in these areas, do not have a higher incidence of cancer and their blood and tissues do not have a significant increase in the level of Thorium.
We are exposed to radiation all our lives. In fact we get 4,400 Bq of radiation from the Potassium-40 with a further 3,000 Bq from Carbon-14 which forms part of our body tissues.
There is no way we can escape completely from radiation. Even outer space is full of radiation. The only way we can escape from all radiation is to leave this universe! or jump into the Kuantan River and be eaten by the crocodiles.
Come to think about it, this would not work either as human body as well as the crocodile's body have their own intrinsic radioactivity!
cont.
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ReplyDeleteThorium-232 In Clay Soil Cannot Get Into Body Tissues
1. Ingestion
Thorium-232 is strongly bound (adsorbed) by soil especially clay soil. The Thorium concentration in the clay particles is about 500,000 % higher than in the water between the clay particles.
So, it cannot be leached out by water and pollute the rivers. Even if the clay soil is washed into the rivers and sea it will not do any harm as the thorium will still be strongly attached (adsorbed) to the clay and will not dissolve into the water.
When ingested there is insignificant absorption of the Thorium because of this strong bond between the clay particles and the Thorium. Practically all the Thorium will be excreted in the faeces with the clay.
Even when Thorium-232 is in the gut, it cannot do any significant harm as a typical 4.0 MeV alpha particle from Thorium-232 can be expected to travel less than 0.00278 cm in body fluids, or much less in the semi-solid faeces.
That may be why, there is not a single well documented case of accidentally or environmentally ingested or inhaled Thorium-232 induced cancer in the intestines.
cont
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ReplyDelete2. Inhalation
Because of its mass, Thorium-232 particles are very heavy and has great difficulty to get airborne.
Normally these particles get airborne only when they are very small and the only ones that can get deep into the lungs are those which are about 1 to 2 micron in diameter.
These fine particles are only found in the mines and experimental nuclear plants where powerful machines are used or where there is combustion. The chance of inhaling1 to 2 micron sized thorium particles in the Kuantan air is practically non-existent.
All lung disorders are associated with prolonged exposure in the mines or Thorium refining plants where the above conditions are present.
Thorium-232 produces only alpha rays (gamma rays from daughter isotopes are insignificant) which cannot pass through even a thin piece of paper or the surface of the skin.
If you have a lump of pure Thorium-232, all you need to do is to wrap it up in newspaper and that will stop all the alpha radiation from getting out!
Since alpha radiation cannot go far, even if you have a huge pile of Lynas waste, the external radiation would not increase by much because only the tiny percentage of thorium-232 atoms directly on the surface of the pile will be able to radiate out their alpha particles. Those just below the surface will remain inside the pile and be converted to simple helium gas.
That's why I always tell the anti-lynas clique that I have no problem in keeping a few hundred kilograms of pure Thorium-232 in my house. Because I would be keeping the Thorium-232 in the form of a solid metallic sphere where the surface area to unit volume is minimum and since metallic Thorium-232 is superb radiation shield, practically all the tiny amount of radiation produced, are auto-shielded by the metallic Thorium-232 ! Radiation risk from pure Thorium-232 is minute and keeping it in a the form of a metallic sphere and wrapping it up in newspaper would cut the radiation to a completely harmless level !
The radiation of 6 Bq/gm from the weakly radioactive Thorium-232 in the Lynas waste is so low that even IAEA do not consider it significant and as such can be transported without any special permission.
Moreover, Thorium-232 is not a Carcinogen (cancer causing agent) if Inhaled or Ingested according to the International Agency for Research on Cancer IARC.
Thorium-232 is considered to be a carcinogen only IF ADMINISTERED INTRAVENOUSLY AS A COLLOIDAL DISPERSION OF THORIUM-232 DIOXIDE.
It was claimed that a 20 year study in one of the largest rare earth mine, the Bayun Obo mine has shown that inhalation Thorium has proven to cause lung cancer. The number of miners in 2001 were 6,983 of which 3016 were exposed to dense dust in the mine.
After correcting for the heavy smoking, there was an excess of 10 cases of lung cancer in workers who had worked for about 30 years or so in the mine.
But this study cannot exclude crystalline silica (SiO2) in the dust as being the cause of the lung cancers. Silica is a confirmed carcinogen while Thorium by inhalation or ingestion is not.
cont.
cont.
ReplyDeleteAND MOREOVER, KUANTAN PEOPLE ARE NOT RARE EARTH OR THORIUM MINERS!
The rare earth miners in the case of the Lynas Rare Earth Plant are still in a place called Mount Weld in Western Australia!
If there is any long term lung problem, the Australians are the ones who will be getting those problems and not the Kuantan people.
Kuantan people are just ordinary traders, office workers, taxi drivers or just hanging around doing nothing in the air-conditioned malls.
It is tantamount to claiming that since workers in the granite quarries and underground tin mines developed severe lung disease (silicosis) and lung cancer from inhaling dust containing silica (sand), the millions of tons of sand in our beaches should be relocated to somewhere safe or shipped back to...?Australia.
Definite evidence that crystalline silica (Sand, Sio2) is associated with an increased rate of lung cancer led the International Agency for Research on
Cancer (IARC) to conclude in 1997 that crystalline silica is a known human
carcinogen.
There is also a fear that the waste will be dumped all over the place. Unfortunately, this risk also apply to all our factories and plants. Should we demand that all our factories and plants to be closed down so that we can go back to the good old days of tapping rubber and plucking coconuts for the BIG WHITE MAN?
And what about other pollution and/or radiation sources in the environment before Lynas even starts. For example, a 1,000MW coal plant after just 1 year of operation produces 6,000,000 tons of CO2, 44,000 tons of SO2, 22,000 tons of NO2, 320,000 tons of ash containing 400 tons of heavy metals (arsenic, mercury, cadmium, lead etc.) and, here’s the kicker, including 5 tons of Uranium and 12 tons of Thorium from which the radon gas of both decay chains are out the chimney and into our air... and we are building TWO of these now to add to those we already have on the peninsula.
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ReplyDelete3. External Threat
Thorium-232 produces only alpha rays (gamma rays from daughter isotopes are insignificant) which cannot pass through even a thin piece of paper or the surface of the skin.
Even a giant lump of Thorium-232 containing material will radiate alpha particles only from the tiny amount of Thorium-232 atoms on it's surface as all the alpha particles produced by those inside the lump cannot penetrate even a couple of centimetres, so even if we have a small mountain of material containing Thorium-232, it makes not much difference
.
A simple newspaper wrapping would stop all alpha radiation from a lump of Thorium-232.
Someone claimed that although Thorium-232 may not be dangerous, all their "daughter" isotopes have very short half-lives like Radon-220 and these are highly radioactive, so how could we say that Thorium-232 is not dangerous.
Well, the reason is obvious. But I find great difficulty in explaining to the layman the reason why when an element with an extremely long half-life that decays into isotopes with very short half-life, there is minimal accumulation of the short half-life isotopes and as such do not build up into a large enough quantity to pose any significant hazard.
I will try to explain by this simple analogy.
If there are 2 million people waiting outside a stadium and 1 million people managed to get into the stadium after 14,000,000,000 years (half-life of Thorium-232), it means that you will see only 1 person getting into the stadium every 14,000 years.
But once in the stadium the half-life of the new person (half-life of Radon-220 from the Thorium-232 decay chain is only 55 seconds) is so short when compared with those outside (Thorium-232) that he has left the stadium almost immediately. Getting in is extremely slow but getting out is extremely fast!
Since only 1 person gets into the stadium every 14,000 years, if you look into the stadium you will see it as empty most of the time!
It is just like trying to fill up a bucket by a slow, slow drop by drop drip and the bucket has a big hole at the bottom. If you look into the bucket you will see practically little or no water in it!
Since the Lynas waste product has only 6 Bq/gm of radioactivity, the chance of detecting any significant amount of radon gas is pretty slim indeed.
cont
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ReplyDelete4.Unnatural Routes of Entry
The only way Thorium can gain entry into the body is by injection. In the past where huge doses of 25cc to 50 cc of a 25%solution of Thorium dioxide (Thorotrast) was injected into the vein for contrast radiological studies, a very small number of patients were believed to have developed cancers 20 to 30 years later. Even with these extremely high unnatural doses, there was no acute toxicity.
In the south of the state of Kerala in India the soil contains as much as 4,000 ppm (parts of Thorium per million). Studies have shown that there is little or no accumulation of Thorium-232 in the inhabitants.
The Lynas waste contains only 1,650 ppm.
Over the last 40 years since I developed a special interest in nuclear medicine and particle physics, I have not come across any well documented and well proven report of any human being severely injured or killed by accidental or environmental inhalation or ingestion of Thorium-232.
We need to compare this with the 15,000 people murdered in the USA every year and the 2 to 3 million people killed by Malaria worldwide yearly!
So if Thorium cannot enter the body in significant amounts by ingestion or inhalation and alpha rays do not pose an external threat, what's all the big fuss about the Lynas rare earth plant ?
It should also be noted that Australians are delighted that a company called Arafura is building a huge Rare Earth Processing Plant costing over A$1 Billion in Whyalla in South Australia.
This plant is expected to produce over 1,000 high paying jobs for the Australians.
Arafura must be hoping that we are stupid enough to stop Lynas and stop competing with them.
Remember the Tin slag from the Eastern Smelting and Straits Trading in Penang ? These, which contain the tantalum and monazite ore, and the monazite ore can be more than 3,700 % more radioactive than the Lynas waste.
And these radioactive tin slag were used to fill up the old Penang Stadium and the roads in Penang. A lot of these has already been stolen and sold off at a huge profit, but a lot still remains in the roads in Butterworth and Penang island.
The people in Penang have not developed Cancer so far as a result of these slag!
Dr Looi
*
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Quote:
ReplyDelete“IF YOUR PLANT IS SO SAFE, IS IT SAFE FOR A PREGNANT LADY TO WORK HERE?”
Unquote
The answer is a big YES!, provided certain precautions are taken...just like even when crossing a road we have to take certain precautions.
To be frank, I would have no objections if any of my family members who are pregnant want to work in the Lynas plant.
In all the hospitals where I have worked in, I have come across many pregnant nurses, radiologists, doctors and other pregnant female staff members who worked in high radiation risk areas of the Radiology and Radiotherapy departments and I have not come across a single problem affecting the pregnancy or the baby that is related to radiation injury.
The biggest danger to the baby is during the first trimester when development is greatest. In the 2nd and 3rd trimester, the danger is the same as that for an adult.
All staff working in the high radiation areas are provided with a radiation dosimeter. And if the dose is exceed, the pregnant lady is relocated to an area where the radiation is much lower.
Standards for radiation protection in the USA are established by the National Council on Radiation Protection and Measurement (NCRP) and its international counterpart, the International Commission on Radiological Protection (ICRP). Both of these organizations offer recommendations for the maximum permissible dose (MPD) of radiation to which people should be exposed.
The MPD During Pregnancy by ICRP is 2 mSv while that of the American counterpart NCRP is even higher at 5 mSv.
For flight attendants and pilots, the exposure to radiation are much higher and to date I have not come across any well documented report of any such personnel developing radiation induced malformations or cancers in their babies. There is of course many other reasons why it is not advisable for a flight attendant to continue flying in the 2nd and 3rd trimester of pregnancy. In the presence of an emergency, a pregnant flight attendant would be more of a liability than a help.
In the Lynas plant, I see no reason why a pregnant woman cannot continue working well into the 3rd trimester, if she so wishes.
Dato' Dr Looi
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Quote: "Thorium-232 do not produce any gamma rays, but it's daughter radionuclides do produce the dangerous penetrating gamma rays" Unquote
ReplyDeletePure freshly separated Thorium-232 has only a slight alpha activity. There is no beta radiation and only a slight amount of gamma radiation (from the 0.09-MeV gamma rays which emanate from Th-228 decay).
However, the activity from the Th-228 side of the chain is quickly re-established. A first equilibrium state is reached in about 36 days (10 half-lives of Ra-224).
Activity then declines, as Th-228 decays faster than it is replenished by decaying Ac-228. About 3 years after separation, the activity is lower than at any other time except just after isolation.
Activity then increases until the second equilibrium state is reached in about 60 years or so.
Thorium-232 with all its daughter radionuclides
Total alpha energy = 36.2 MeV per nuclear decay
Total Gamma energy = 3.40 MeV per nuclear decay
Total Beta energy = 5.95 MeV per nuclear decay
Since the Lynas waste has 6 Bq/gm of activity, 1 KILOGRAM would have 6,000 Bq and that will produce 20,400 MeV of gamma ray energy from all the daughter radionuclides at equilibrium.
20,400 MeV from 1 kg of Lynas waste = 0.0000000007808 calories or 0.000000003268 joules.
This amount of gamma ray energy from 1 KILOGRAM of Lynas waste is not enough to tickle the backside of even a tiny little newborn caterpillar!
The total alpha energy is much larger i.e. 36.2 MeV but since alpha radiation does not pose an external threat and Thorium in clay soil is not absorbed, and since inhalation only affects miners, it is not a problem either for the Kuantan folks. But it may be a problem for those poor Australian miners in Mount Weld in Western Australia.
So, the Australians are the ones getting the wrong side of the deal!
Dust particles can get deep into the lungs only if they are very small i.e. much less than 10 micron. The particles that are less than 5 microns are the ones which can get deep into the alveoli of the lungs. Larger ones are trapped by the mucus in the nose and upper respiratory tract and are coughed out or sneezed out.
Particles of less than 5 microns can only be found in the Thorium and Uranium mines where powerful machines are used or where there is combustion.
cont
cont
ReplyDeleteSince alpha radiation cannot go far (the 4.0 MeV alpha particle from Thorium-232 decay can travel only 27.8 microns in water), even if you have a huge pile of Lynas waste, the external radiation would not increase by much because only the tiny percentage of thorium-232 atoms directly on the surface of the pile will be able to radiate out their alpha particles.
Those just below the surface will remain inside the pile and be converted to simple helium gas and those on the surface will travel only 2.54 cm into the air, picks up 2 electrons and become the harmless Helium for you to fill up your balloon.
The beta particles which are electrons (electricity = flow of electrons) do not pose an external threat either. There are lots more high voltage electrons on your clothing as static electricity when you stay in a dry air-condition room than from the waste.
Only gamma rays from your mountain of Lynas waste from less than 45 cm deep (depending on the type of soil and the water content) are able to see the light of day, as those deeper than that will be blocked by the layer of soil from getting out. And as shown above the amount of gamma rays are insignificant.
When the mother radionuclide has an extremely long half life and the daughters have very short half life, there is very little accumulation of the short half life daughters.
For instance, I did a quick calculation and found that the concentration of the daughter radionuclides is negligible e.g. there is only 1 atom of Radium 224 for every 1.4 trillion atoms of Thorium-232 at equilibrium (I stand to be corrected).
As far as radon gas is concerned, it must be remembered that Radon-220 from the decay chain of Thorium-232 has a very short half life of only 55 seconds!
As such only a tiny amount of Radon-220 (a.k.a. Thoron) within a few centimetres of the surface of a huge pile of waste will be able to live long enough to escape from the pile and see the light of day!
A lot of people have mistaken Radon-220 from Thorium-232 decay series with the more notorious Radon-222 which has a much longer half life of 3.8 days. Radon-222 comes from Uranium-238 decay series.
Because of its much longer half life, Radon-222 can and do accumulate in the cellars and poorly ventilated areas of domestic dwellings. Radon-222 is the gas that has been linked to lung cancers in especially non-smokers.
So please do not blame poor Thorium-232. It does not produce any Radon-222 and as such is not guilty of radon induced lung cancers.
SO WHAT'S THE BIG RADIATION PROBLEM?
Dr HW Looi
Quote Ronny: " In conclusion, thorium from Lynas is Tenorm and a radioactive waste which has serious health risks.."
ReplyDelete(TENORM = Technically Enhanced Naturally Occurring Radioactive Material)
ORE FOR LYNAS PLANT = 1,600 ppm (parts per million) of Thorium
TWO MOST VOLUMINOUS LYNAS "WASTE" = 12 ppm of Thorium
3rd RESIDUE STREAM = 1,500 ppm of Thorium
AVERAGE MALAYSIAN SOIL = 20 ppm OF THORIUM
Since the concentration of Thorium-232 is not enhanced or concentrated, HOW CAN YOU CALL THE LYNAS "WASTE" A TENORM ?
Nick Tsurikov, Radiation Safety Expert: " THE MAJORITY OF THIS LYNAS "WASTE" WILL HAVE ONLY HALF THE THORIUM THAN IN NORMAL MALAYSIAN SOIL.
So, in fact MOST OF THE LYNAS RESIDUES ARE ONLY HALF AS RADIOACTIVE AS THE SAND THE KIDS ALL OVER MALAYSIA PLAY IN THE KINDERGARTENS." (Note: Sand or crystalline SiO2 is also classified as a group 1 Carcinogen by IARC).
If you do look through the Lynas RIA together with UN (not IAEA) reports - you will clearly see that two most 'voluminous' residues from LAMP will have less than 12 parts per million of thorium - and the average Malaysian soil - 20 parts per million of thorium. Of course, the third 'residue stream' will have about 1500 ppm of thorium and will need to be managed appropriately
COMPARISON OF RADIOACTIVITY IN Bq (Specific activity.. number of atoms decaying in 1second)
Pure Thorium-232 = 4,080 Bq/gm
Pure Potassium-40 = 254,000 Bq/gm
Naturally Occurring Potassium (3 different isotopes) in our body and food = 31.825 Bq/gm
Artificially created Plutonium-238 = 634,000,000,000 Bq/gm (1/2 life=87.7 years)
Monazite ore from Amang or Tin Tailings in Malaysia = 284 Bq/gm
Lynas Rare Earth Waste = 6 Bq/gm
Quote: AELB (Atomic Energy Licensing Board, Malaysia):
Malaysia was the world's no. 1 producer of tin. Along with tin, there's always Thorium and Uranium and therefore this is not Malaysia's first facility, AELB is has experience to handle this, to overcome this and AELB is prepared.
THERE ARE MORE THAN 10 FACILITIES THAT ARE VERY SIMILAR TO LYNAS.
SOME OF THEM ARE PRODUCING HIGHER RESIDUES, HIGHER CONCENTRATION OF URANIUM AND THORIUM.
AELB has been able to regulate and control these factories, so it is based on AELB experience and the experience of the industry abroad." Unquote
QUESTION: WHY IS IT THAT THERE ARE NO DEMONSTRATIONS BY
THE ANTI-LYNAS FOOT-SOLDIERS AGAINST THESE 10 CHEMICAL
PLANTS ALREADY IN MALAYSIA THAT ARE PRODUCING "WASTES
WITH HIGHER CONCENTRATIONS OF URANIUM AND THORIUM"?
Dato' Dr Looi
Quote MistyClarity : " There are other pollutants from the process that are equally harmful and disconcerting such as the acid fumes and lead poisoning - oh yes LEAD POISONING. One of the problems that was found from bukit merah rare-earth was the lead poisoning of young children and adults living in the vicinity of the factory.
ReplyDeleteLEAD IS THE FINAL END PRODUCT OF THE RADIOACTIVE DECAY.
Unquote.
Answer:
It will take 14 Billion years for half of the Thorium-232 to decay into Lead.
BUT YOU MUST REMEMBER THAT THE EARTH WILL BE SWALLOWED UP BY THE EXPANDING RED GIANT SUN IN ONLY ABOUT 5 BILLION YEARS !
EVEN LONG BEFORE THAT, IN ABOUT 1 BILLION YEARS FROM NOW YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL ALL BE BARBEQUED AND INCINERATED BY THE EVER INCREASING RADIATION OF THE RED GIANT SUN !
SO THERE IS NO NEED TO WORRY YOURSELF SICK ABOUT THE THORIUM-232 TURNING INTO LEAD AND POISON THE PEOPLE OF MALAYSIA AND YOUR CHILDREN !
EVERY LIVING THING INCLUDING YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE DEAD AND GONE LONG BEFORE THAT !
Dato' Dr Looi Hoong Wah.
FAMM, MB., ChB(Manchester), MRCS(England), MRCP(UK), MRCP(London).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=RPOGzrqu1Vg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjT1kUAy_08&feature=player_detailpage
Quote Fuad dated 3.10.12: "Thorium from Lynas is TENORM and a radioactive waste which has serious health risks. Lynas and AELB have made the TENORM sound like low level waste by merely diluting the waste until it conforms with IAEA regulations. Diluting does not make the radiation ‘go away’." Unquote.
ReplyDeleteAnswer:
The use of the term "TENORM" has gone out of fashion for quite a number of years but it looks like the Anti-Lynas folks have reintroduced it just recently.
TENORM has been defined as " Technically ENHANCED Naturally Occurring Radioactive Material."
Now:
ORE FOR LYNAS PLANT = 1,600 ppm of Thorium
TWO MOST VOLUMINOUS LYNAS "WASTE" = 12 ppm of Thorium
3rd RESIDUE STREAM = 1,500 ppm of Thorium
AVERAGE MALAYSIAN SOIL = 20 ppm OF THORIUM
Since the concentration of Thorium-232 is not ENHANCED or concentrated and the concentration of the 'waste" is less than the original ore, IT IS RATHER SILLY TO CALL THE LYNAS "WASTE" A TENORM.
DILUTING A SUBSTANCE WILL NOT MAKE IT GO AWAY, BUT YOU MUST REMEMBER THAT IT IS AN INTERNATIONALLY LEGITIMATE AND ACCEPTED WAY FOR REDUCING ANY RADIONUCLIDE'S IMPACT ON THE ENVIRONMENT.
For instance, STRYCHNINE IS AN EXTREMELY DANGEROUS POISON AND YET WHEN PROPERLY DILUTED IT HAS BEEN USED FOR DECADES AS A TONIC !
CHORINE WHICH IS ALSO AN EXTREMELY DANGEROUS POISON, WHEN WELL DILUTED IN WATER IS PERFECTLY SAFE AND IS DRUNK BY ALL THE ANTI-LYNAS FOLK IN THE FORM OF TAP WATER!
Perhaps this clarification by Nick Tsurikov will help.
QUOTE: "The funny bit about NORM/TENORM - as I've said many times before: the term 'TENORM' is meaningless and it's use is discouraged internationally.
The example that I gave before, I think:
(a) I buy a truckload of sand mixed with gravel, but need to separate the two.
(b) Sand has 3 parts per million thorium, gravel - 30 parts per million; overall average = 10 ppm
(c) So I grab a shovel and throw the stuff through the metal mesh - sand goes through, gravel stays on my side.
So…
BY THE DEFINITION OF TENORM - I am 'technical enhancing NORM' and therefore, I am 'generating' horribly deadly TENORM - as the concentration of radioactivity in the final product (gravel) is THREE TIMES HIGHER than the background.
So - I need to be strictly controlled and cannot even buy the sand/gravel mix, until I'll get licensed by the AELB and a dozen of other departments…
The point that I am trying to make is: it is completely irrelevant what we call the substance, we need to look what level of hazard is associated with it and how this level of 'whatever it may be' compares with national and international standards.
Basically, the definition of NORM, as I have in my course slides is mostly from the IAEA Safety Glossary:
Radioactive material containing no significant amounts of radionuclides other than naturally occurring radionuclides and designated in national law or by a regulatory body as being subject to regulatory control because of its radioactivity.
So it is actually up to the national regulators to decide what to regulate - IAEA suggests 1 Bq/gram of thorium and/or uranium, some countries have 0.5 Bq/g, others - for different materials - up to 10 Bq/g.
A point on the 'waste'. If you do look through the Lynas RIA together with UN (not IAEA) reports
- you will clearly see that two most 'voluminous' residues from LAMP will have less than 12 parts per million of thorium
- and the average Malaysian soil - 20 parts per million of thorium.
That is the point.
Of course, the third 'residue stream' will have about 1500 ppm of thorium and will need to be managed appropriately.
UNQUOTE.
Quote Clement Chin: " We need to be concerned about TENORM because:
ReplyDelete• It has the potential to cause elevated exposure to radiation.
• People may not be aware of TENORM materials and need information about them." Unquote.
Answer:
The Anti-Lynas folks, who are pretty ignorant of the technical aspects of the ultra-modern, state of the art Lynas plant, has lately been repeatedly and persistently flaunting their ignorance of the word "TENORM" in order to entertain the world audience.
The use of the term "TENORM" has gone out of fashion for quite a number of years but it looks like the Anti-Lynas folks have reintroduced it just recently.
TENORM has been defined as " Technically ENHANCED Naturally Occurring Radioactive Material."
Now:
ORE FOR LYNAS PLANT = 1,600 ppm of Thorium
TWO MOST VOLUMINOUS LYNAS "WASTE" = 12 ppm of Thorium
3rd RESIDUE STREAM = 1,500 ppm of Thorium
AVERAGE MALAYSIAN SOIL = 20 ppm OF THORIUM
Since the concentration of Thorium-232 is not ENHANCED or concentrated and the concentration of the 'waste" is less than the original ore, IT IS RATHER SILLY TO CALL THE LYNAS "WASTE" A Technically "Enhanced" NORM (TENORM).
DILUTING A SUBSTANCE WILL NOT MAKE IT GO AWAY, BUT YOU MUST REMEMBER THAT IT IS AN INTERNATIONALLY LEGITIMATE AND ACCEPTED WAY FOR REDUCING ANY RADIONUCLIDE'S IMPACT ON THE ENVIRONMENT.
For instance, STRYCHNINE IS AN EXTREMELY DANGEROUS POISON AND YET WHEN PROPERLY DILUTED IT HAS BEEN USED FOR DECADES AS A TONIC !
CHORINE WHICH IS ALSO AN EXTREMELY DANGEROUS POISON, WHEN WELL DILUTED IN WATER IS PERFECTLY SAFE AND IS DRUNK BY ALL THE ANTI-LYNAS FOLK IN THE FORM OF TAP WATER!
Perhaps this clarification by Nick Tsurikov will help.
QUOTE: "The funny bit about NORM/TENORM - as I've said many times before: the term 'TENORM' is meaningless and it's use is discouraged internationally.
The example that I gave before, I think:
(a) I buy a truckload of sand mixed with gravel, but need to separate the two.
(b) Sand has 3 parts per million thorium, gravel - 30 parts per million; overall average = 10 ppm
(c) So I grab a shovel and throw the stuff through the metal mesh - sand goes through, gravel stays on my side.
So…
BY THE DEFINITION OF TENORM - I am 'technical enhancing NORM' and therefore, I am 'generating' horribly deadly TENORM - as the concentration of radioactivity in the final product (gravel) is THREE TIMES HIGHER than the background.
So - I need to be strictly controlled and cannot even buy the sand/gravel mix, until I'll get licensed by the AELB and a dozen of other departments…
The point that I am trying to make is: it is completely irrelevant what we call the substance, we need to look what level of hazard is associated with it and how this level of 'whatever it may be' compares with national and international standards.
Basically, the definition of NORM, as I have in my course slides is mostly from the IAEA Safety Glossary:
Radioactive material containing no significant amounts of radionuclides other than naturally occurring radionuclides and designated in national law or by a regulatory body as being subject to regulatory control because of its radioactivity.
So it is actually up to the national regulators to decide what to regulate - IAEA suggests 1 Bq/gram of thorium and/or uranium, some countries have 0.5 Bq/g, others - for different materials - up to 10 Bq/g.
A point on the 'waste'. If you do look through the Lynas RIA together with UN (not IAEA) reports
- you will clearly see that two most 'voluminous' residues from LAMP will have less than 12 parts per million of thorium
- and the average Malaysian soil - 20 parts per million of thorium.
That is the point.
Of course, the third 'residue stream' will have about 1500 ppm of thorium and will need to be managed appropriately.
UNQUOTE.
Dato' Dr Looi
Quote Vincent Blaze: Can somebody tell me what type of waste and radiation does Lynas produce...my friend here is talking crap all that and saying that lynas is lying..... Thorium 232 is produced anything else? Unquote.
ReplyDeleteAnswer:
There is actually no waste products in Lynas and the so-called waste is not wasted but is recycled and made into useful products.
The operation of the plant will result in the generation of three major residue streams, namely the
1. WLP .. Water Leach Purification Residue (WLP) from the cracking and separation process,
2. FGD .. the Flue Gas Desulphurisation Residue (FGD) from the waste gas treatment system (scrubber) and the
3. NUF .. Neutralisation Underflow Solids from the wastewater treatment process (NUF).
ORE FOR LYNAS PLANT ~ 1,600 ppm (parts per million)
2 MOST VOLUMINOUS LYNAS "WASTE" = 12 ppm
3rd RESIDUE STREAM = 1,500 ppm of Thorium
AVERAGE MALAYSIAN SOIL = 20 ppm OF THORIUM
Lynas is expected to produce about 820,000 tons of WLP in the 1st 10 years of operation or 82,000 tons of WLP per year.
The WLP contains less than 1,600 ppm or 0.16 % of Thorium-232.
As such we would expect to get only 0.0016 x 82,000 tons of Thorium per year i.e.131 tons of Thorium per year.
Thorium-232 which is the only significant radioactive element found in the Lynas waste has an incredibly long half-life of 14 billion years and as such is much less radioactive than the Potassium-40 in our body whose half-life is only 1.25 billion years.
THE LONGER THE HALF-LIFE OF A SUBSTANCE THE LESS IS THE RADIOACTIVITY and as such the less dangerous it is.
As a simple analogy, if it takes 14,000,000,000 years for half of a house to be burnt, there is no chance of anybody getting hurt. But if it takes only 14 minutes for half of the house to be burnt down, a lot of people will be injured or killed.
COMPARISON OF RADIOACTIVITY IN Bq (Specific activity.. number of atoms decaying in 1second)
Pure Thorium-232 = 4,080 Bq/gm
Pure Potassium-40 = 254,000 Bq/gm
Naturally Occurring Potassium (3 different isotopes) in our body and food = 31.825 Bq/gm
Artificially created Plutonium-238 = 634,000,000,000 Bq/gm (1/2 life=87.7 years)
Monazite ore from Amang or Tin Tailings in Malaysia = 284 Bq/gm
Lynas Rare Earth Waste = 6 Bq/gm
Quote: "Nick Tsurikov, Radiation Safety Expert: " THE MAJORITY OF THIS LYNAS "WASTE" WILL HAVE ONLY HALF THE THORIUM THAN IN NORMAL MALAYSIAN SOIL.
So, in fact most of Lynas residues are only half as radioactive as the sand the kids all over Malaysia play in the kindergartens"
(Note: Sand or crystalline SiO2 is also classified as a group 1 Carcinogen by IARC).
If you do look through the Lynas RIA together with UN (not IAEA) reports
- you will clearly see that two most 'voluminous' residues from LAMP will have less than 12 parts per million of thorium - and the average Malaysian soil - 20 parts per million of thorium.
Of course, the third 'residue stream' will have about 1500 ppm of thorium and will need to be managed appropriately" Unquote.
cont.
cont.
ReplyDeletePure freshly separated Thorium-232 has only a slight alpha activity.
There is no beta radiation and only a slight amount of gamma radiation (from the 0.09-MeV gamma rays which emanate from Th-228 decay which cannot be chemically separated from Th-232).
However, the activity from the Th-228 side of the chain is quickly re-established. A first equilibrium state is reached in about 36 days (10 half-lives of Ra-224).
Activity then declines, as Th-228 decays faster than it is replenished by decaying Ac-228. About 3 years after separation, the activity is lower than at any other time except just after isolation.
Activity then increases until the second equilibrium state is reached in about 60 years or so.
Thorium-232 with all its daughter radionuclides
Total alpha energy = 36.2 MeV per nuclear decay
Total Gamma energy = 3.40 MeV per nuclear decay
Total Beta energy = 5.95 MeV per nuclear decay
Since the Lynas waste has 6 Bq/gm of activity, 1 KILOGRAM would have 6,000 Bq and that will produce 20,400 MeV of gamma ray energy from all the daughter radionuclides at equilibrium.
20,400 MeV from 1 kg of Lynas waste = 0.0000000007808 calories or 0.000000003268 joules.
This amount of gamma ray energy from 1 KILOGRAM of Lynas waste is not enough to tickle the backside of even a tiny little newborn caterpillar!
cont.
The total alpha energy is much larger i.e. 36.2 MeV but since alpha radiation does not pose an external threat and Thorium in clay soil is not absorbed, and since inhalation only affects miners, it is not a problem either for the Kuantan folks. But it may be a problem for those poor Australian miners in Mount Weld in Western Australia.
So, the Australians are the ones getting the wrong side of the deal!
Dust particles can get deep into the lungs only if they are very small i.e. much less than 10 micron. The particles that are less than 5 microns are the ones which can get deep into the alveoli of the lungs. Larger ones are trapped by the mucus in the nose and upper respiratory tract and are coughed out or sneezed out.
Particles of less than 5 microns can only be found in the Thorium and Uranium mines where powerful machines are used or where there is combustion.
Since alpha radiation cannot go far (the 4.0 MeV alpha particle from Thorium-232 decay can travel only 27.8 microns in water), even if you have a huge pile of Lynas waste, the external radiation would not increase by much because only the tiny percentage of thorium-232 atoms directly on the surface of the pile will be able to radiate out their alpha particles.
Those just below the surface will remain inside the pile and be converted to simple helium gas and those on the surface will travel only 2.54 cm into the air, picks up 2 electrons and become the harmless Helium for you to fill up your balloon.
The beta particles which are electrons (electricity = flow of electrons) do not pose an external threat either. There are lots more high voltage electrons on your clothing as static electricity when you stay in a dry air-condition room than from the waste.
cont.
cont.
ReplyDeleteOnly gamma rays from your mountain of Lynas waste from less than 45 cm deep (depending on the type of soil and the water content) are able to see the light of day, as those deeper than that will be blocked by the layer of soil from getting out. And as shown above the amount of gamma rays are insignificant.
When the mother radionuclide has an extremely long half life and the daughters have very short half life, there is very little accumulation of the short half life daughters.
For instance, I did a quick calculation and found that the concentration of the daughter radionuclides is negligible e.g. there is only 1 atom of Radium 224 for every 1.4 trillion atoms of Thorium-232 at equilibrium (I stand to be corrected).
As far as radon gas is concerned, it must be remembered that Radon-220 from the decay chain of Thorium-232 has a very short half life of only 55 seconds!
As such only a tiny amount of Radon-220 (a.k.a. Thoron) within a few centimetres of the surface of a huge pile of waste will be able to live long enough to escape from the pile and see the light of day!
A lot of people have mistaken Radon-220 from Thorium-232 decay series with the more notorious Radon-222 which has a much longer half life of 3.8 days. Radon-222 comes from Uranium-238 decay series.
Because of its much longer half life, Radon-222 can and do accumulate in the cellars and poorly ventilated areas of domestic dwellings. Radon-222 is the gas that has been linked to lung cancers in especially non-smokers.
So please do not blame poor Thorium-232. It does not produce any Radon-222 and as such is not guilty of radon induced lung cancers.
SO WHAT'S THE BIG RADIATION PROBLEM?
Dr HW Looi
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=E8enHdOrPeo
Nick Tsurikov the international radiation safety expert who is the co-author of the IAEA safety report had categorically maintained that there is absolutely no radiation or toxic waste problem from the Lynas plant.
ReplyDeleteQuote Nick Tsurikov:
" NICK TSURIKOV, RADIATION SAFETY SPECIALIST, ON LYNAS PLANT, QUOTE:
"The following has been confirmed way too many times and has NEVER EVER been proven to be false by anyone:
1. Radiation from the plant will be undetectable outside the boundaries;
2. None of the materials have to be signposted as 'radioactive' for transport - as per international regulations, since 1996;
3. In accordance with international guidelines, the plant can be allowed to operate pretty much anywhere in the world with minimal regulation;
4. Vast majority of tailings will have only half of thorium that is in normal Malaysian soil;
5. Thorium in other waste is insoluble and cannot 'poison' any plants, animals or the environment - even in theory;
6. Blending of tailings follows the basic safety principle of World Health Organisation, International Labour Organisation and seven more UN and other reputable international organisation - with guidelines on this existing in many countries;
7. Maximum dose to workers is not expected to be more that ~25% of the limit, therefore - in accordance with international guidelines - personal monitoring is not even necessary: the doses are so low that they can be assessed for a 'work group', no need for 'individual' assessments.
Unquote.
ORE FOR LYNAS PLANT = 1,600 ppm (parts per million) of Thorium
2 MOST VOLUMINOUS LYNAS "WASTE" = 12 ppm of Thorium
SMALL 3rd RESIDUE STREAM = 1,500 ppm of Thorium
AVERAGE MALAYSIAN SOIL = 20 ppm OF THORIUM
Nick Tsurikov, Radiation Safety Expert: " THE MAJORITY OF THIS LYNAS "WASTE" WILL HAVE ONLY HALF THE THORIUM THAN IN NORMAL MALAYSIAN SOIL.
So, in fact most of Lynas residues are only half as radioactive as the sand the kids all over Malaysia play in the kindergartens"
(Note: Sand or crystalline SiO2 is also classified as a group 1 Carcinogen by IARC).
*
Journal of Nuclear and Related Technology
1. THE ANNUAL DOSE RATE EXPOSURE
FROM MALAYSIAN CLAY BRICK HOUSE = 0.43 mSv/year
(215 x Lynas Worst Case Scenario)
2. SLEEPING IN WOODEN HOUSE = 0.20 mSv/yr
(100x Lynas worst case)
3. SLAG BRICK AND GRANITE HOUSE = up to 2.0 mSv/yr
(1,000x Lynas worst case)
SO TO ALL ANTI-LYNAS FOLKS, YOU SHOULD PITCH UP A TENT NEXT TO THE LYNAS PLANT AND SEND YOUR ENTIRE FAMILY TO LIVE NEXT TO LYNAS AS THIS IS HUNDREDS OF TIMES LESS RADIOACTIVE THAN LIVING IN YOUR PRESENT WOODEN OR BRICK HOUSES !
4. SLEEPING NEXT TO SOMEONE for 8 hrs/day
(e.g. your wife) = 0.02 mSv (UNSCER, IAEA)
(10x Lynas worst case)
AND DON'T SLEEP WITH YOUR WIFE OR HUSBAND FOR THAT IS LIKE SLEEPING NEXT TO 10 LYNAS PLANTS!
Dato' Dr Looi
Since the average absorbed Beta energy of K-40 decay is 499 keV and the average absorbed Gamma energy is 156 keV,
ReplyDeleteTHE INTERNAL DOSAGE from K-40 ~ 0.24 mSv/yr:
(120x Lynas worst case scenario)
What this means is that the anti-lynas folks like Jade Lee, Karl Ngun, Jeffri Chang and Jason Lee are vociferously complaining about the radiation from ONE LYNAS PLANT IN GEBENG WHEN THERE ARE THE EQUIVALENT OF 120 LYNAS PLANTS IN THE FORM OF POTASSIUM-40 producing radiation right inside their bodies!
*
Journal of Nuclear and Related Technology
1. THE ANNUAL DOSE RATE EXPOSURE
FROM MALAYSIAN CLAY BRICK HOUSE = 0.43 mSv/year
(215 x Lynas Worst Case Scenario)
2. SLEEPING IN WOODEN HOUSE = 0.20 mSv/yr
(100x Lynas worst case)
3. SLAG BRICK AND GRANITE HOUSE = up to 2.0 mSv/yr
(1,000x Lynas worst case)
SO TO ALL ANTI-LYNAS FOLKS, YOU SHOULD PITCH UP A TENT NEXT TO THE LYNAS PLANT AND SEND YOUR ENTIRE FAMILY TO LIVE NEXT TO LYNAS AS THIS IS HUNDREDS OF TIMES LESS RADIOACTIVE THAN LIVING IN YOUR PRESENT WOODEN OR BRICK HOUSES !
4. SLEEPING NEXT TO SOMEONE for 8 hrs/day
(e.g. your wife) = 0.02 mSv (UNSCER, IAEA)
(10x Lynas worst case)
AND DON'T SLEEP WITH YOUR WIFE OR HUSBAND FOR THAT IS LIKE SLEEPING NEXT TO 10 LYNAS PLANTS!
Dato' Dr Looi Hoong Wah
FAMM, MB., ChB(Manchester), MRCS(England), MRCP(UK), MRCP(London)
*
Dose in worst case scenario within 1 km of Lynas plant = 0.002 mSv/yr
Monazite Ore in Tin Tailings or Amang = 284 Bq/g or 69,608 ppm.
*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjT1kUAy_08&feature=player_detailpage
Sunday at 3:02am • Like • 2
Quote Anti-Lynas: "The alpha and beta radiation from Thorium-232 may not be dangerous externally but what about the gamma rays.." Unquote.
ReplyDeleteFreshly isolated PURE Thorium-232 do not produce any gamma rays and as such has practically no external biological effect (the 0.09 MeV of gamma rays in freshly isolated Thorium-232 actually comes from Radium-228 decay which comes from Thorium-228.)
Note: Thorium-228 cannot be chemically separated from Thorium-232.
The most biologically damaging forms of gamma radiation occur in the gamma ray window of between 3 and 10 MeV.
Those below 3.0 MeV are NOT significantly harmful because they have poor penetrating power in living tissues and do not deposit much energy into these tissues.
Those higher energy gamma rays of greater than 10 MeV are
NOT very harmful because the body is relatively transparent to them i.e. they pass straight through without depositing a significant amount of energy.
THE AVERAGE ENERGY OF THE MOST ABUNDANT EMISSION OF THORIUM-232 IS ONLY 0.059 MeV, though the gamma ray from Thallium-208 decay to stable Lead-208 (in the Th-232 decay series) has a higher energy of 2.62 MeV.
AS SUCH THE TINY AMOUNT OF LOW ENERGY GAMMA RAYS PRODUCED BY THORIUM-232 DECAY CHAIN IS NOT BIOLOGICALLY VERY SIGNIFICANT AS AN EXTERNAL OR EVEN AS AN INTERNAL THREAT.
The alpha ray and beta radiation from Thorium-232 is not an external threat because alpha particles cannot penetrate even a piece of paper and beta rays are nothing more than just electrons..note the flow of electrons is electricity.
SO WHAT'S THE BIG RADIATION FUSS FROM THORIUM-232 DECAY?
Dato' Dr Looi Hoong Wah
FAMM, MB., ChB(Manchester), MRCS(England), MRCP(UK), MRCP(London)
*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=E8enHdOrPeo
ADSORPTION AND SOLUBILITY
ReplyDelete"Thorium-232 is strongly bound (adsorbed) by soil especially clay soil. The Thorium concentration in the clay particles is about 500,000 % higher than in the water between the clay particles.
So, it cannot be leached out by water and pollute the rivers. Even if the clay soil is washed into the rivers and sea it will not do any harm as the thorium will still be strongly attached (adsorbed) to the clay and will not dissolve into the water."
Quote Anti-Lynas:
"Lynas' snake-oil salesman forgot to tell you that the WLP waste will be roasted in concentrated acid. And in that form, thorium is highly soluble. Unquote
The SOLUBILITY of a substance in a solvent like water and ADSORPTION of the substance are 2 separate properties and not the same.
In nature Thorium-232 is found in the form of Monazite (Ce,La,Nd,Th)PO4 i.e. the phosphate of Thorium-232. This is completely insoluble in water.
The next most common ore is Thorite (ThSiO4) which has a gram molecular weight of 324.12 gm. This is also completely insoluble in water.
Practically most of the other thorium compounds are artificially created in the laboratory. The most famous is Thorium dioxide (ThO2) which was used as a radiological contrast media and because it is also insoluble, it is administered intravenously as a colloidal dispersion of thorium-232 dioxide (Thorotrast)
Huge doses of 25cc to 50 cc of a 25%solution of Thorium dioxide (Thorotrast) was injected into the vein or artery in the contrast radiological studies.
The other Thorium salts like the fluorides, chlorides, Iodides, sulfides, selenides, tellurides, nitrides, nitrates, sulphates and other complexes are all artificially synthesized.
All of these have varying degrees of solubility in water. The most soluble will be the nitrates, chlorides and to a lesser degree sulphates. As mentioned above, the oxides, silicates and phosphates are insoluble.
Metallic Thorium-232 is of course totally insoluble in water.
However, whether Thorium-232 is in the SOLUBLE OR INSOLUBLE FORM, IT IS STILL STRONGLY ADSORBED BY CLAY AND CANNOT BE LEACHED OUT BY WATER.
The extremely dangerous herbicide Paraquat is a liquid and is extremely soluble in water. Although it is extremely soluble and dangerous, IT IS NOT LEACHED OUT OF THE SOIL and pollute the rivers because it is STRONGLY ADSORBED BY CLAY SOIL JUST LIKE THORIUM-232.
So Lynas can continue their acid roasting of the ore and with the usual procedures taken, it should not be a problem.
Dato' Dr Looi Hoong Wah.
FAMM, MB., ChB(Manchester), MRCS(England), MRCP(UK), MRCP(London).
INTERNAL DOSAGE FROM K-40
ReplyDelete*
We have to realise that Potassium is ALWAYS in the human body and is strictly homeostatically controlled at 140 g to 200 g (average about 4,400 Bq) per human body, whereas Th-232 IS NEVER IN THE HUMAN BODY IN SIGNIFICANT AMOUNTS.
Note: Bq is the activity and the 4,400 Bq from K-40 has to be converted to the biological dosage before it can be used to compare with exposure from other sources.
Since the average absorbed Beta energy of K-40 decay is 499 keV and the average absorbed Gamma energy is 156 keV, it can be easily calculated that the INTERNAL DOSAGE from K-40 ~ 0.24 mSv/yr or rather a range of 0.17 to 0.24 mSv/yr.
Since the worst case scenario for Lynas is 0.002 mSv/y, the biological radiation dose is about 120 times the Lynas worst case scenario.
To put in another way,
ALTHOUGH THE DIET INTAKE OF POTASSIUM DOES NOT, OVER THE LONG TERM, INFLUENCE THE TOTAL AMOUNT OF POTASSIUM IN THE BODY, THE BODY IS EXPOSED TO A BIOLOGICALLY SIGNIFICANT DOSE OF RADIATION FROM THIS RADIONUCLIDE.
The INTERNAL TOTAL DOSE TO A TYPICAL MEMBER OF THE POPULATION FROM INTERNAL RADIONUCLIDES IS ABOUT 0.42 mSv/y AND APPROXIMATELY 0.17 TO 0.29 mSv/yr IS DUE TO THE K-40 IN THE BODY. The rest of the dosage is from C-14 and other trace radionuclides.
The internal dose from the NORMS in the body is equivalent to 210 x the dosage from Lynas worst case scenario.
Thorium-232 is never in the body in significant amounts. In fact the average level of Thorium-232 in an average body has been estimated to be less than 30 micrograms per person.
IN OTHER WORDS, TO GET 30 GRAMS OR 1 OUNCE OF TH-232, WE NEED TO EXTRACT IT FROM 1,000,000 HUMAN BODIES. Even in places with high Th-232 in the soil like in Kerala, the load of Th-232 is not significantly raised.
Most of the human data for thorium exposure comes from diagnostic studies. A massive dose of 1 to 2 vials of 25 ml of 25% Colloidal thorium-232 dioxide (Thorotrast) was injected into patients as a radiographic contrast medium between 1928 and 1955.
Thorium dioxide in Thorotrast is insoluble and in a colloidal form i.e. in the form of particles. All insoluble particles are taken up by the macrophages and other cells of the reticulo-endothelial (RE) system and deposited into the tissues of the RE system i.e. the liver, spleen, lymph nodes, bone marrow and parts of the small intestines and not just the bones.
In humans, where will the SOLUBLE AND NON-PARTICULATE FORM OF THORIUM SALTS BE DEPOSITED and what is the renal clearance and hence their biological half life?
Nobody really knows because, for obvious reasons, all studies done on Thorium are conducted on animals. The results are only applicable to rats, rabbits, cats and dogs !
Thorium-232 in clay soil cannot enter the body by ingestion as it is strongly adsorbed by clay. In the crystalline or soluble form in the absence of clay, it is estimated only 0.02 to 0.05% is absorbed. When mixed with clay only a minuscule amount is absorbed.
Inhalation of Thorium-232 only occurs if there are particles of less than 5 microns in the air, most effective are particles that are about 1 to 2 microns.
These particles are found only in the Uranium or Thorium mines or where there is combustion.
The ore used by Lynas are moist and the whole process do not involve any dry powder at any stage. So inhalation is not a problem in the ultra-modern, state of the art Lynas plant.
As such to compare the renal clearance of Potassium with that of Thorium-232 clearance and conclude that Th-232 is a few hundred times more dangerous radiologically, do not make any sense because Th-232 is NEVER in the body in any significant quantity and Potassium is ALWAYS in the body in biologically significant amounts.
Dr Looi.
Quote Anti-Lynas: "The alpha and beta radiation from Thorium-232 may not be dangerous externally but what about the gamma rays.." Unquote.
ReplyDeleteFreshly isolated PURE Thorium-232 do not produce any gamma rays and as such has practically no external biological effect (the 0.09 MeV of gamma rays in freshly isolated Thorium-232 actually comes from Radium-228 decay which comes from Thorium-228.)
Note: Thorium-228 cannot be chemically separated from Thorium-232.
The most biologically damaging forms of gamma radiation occur in the gamma ray window of between 3 and 10 MeV.
Those below 3.0 MeV are NOT significantly harmful because they have poor penetrating power in living tissues and do not deposit much energy into these tissues.
Those higher energy gamma rays of greater than 10 MeV are
NOT very harmful because the body is relatively transparent to them i.e. they pass straight through without depositing a significant amount of energy.
THE AVERAGE ENERGY OF THE MOST ABUNDANT EMISSION OF THORIUM-232 IS ONLY 0.059 MeV, though the gamma ray from Thallium-208 decay to stable Lead-208 (in the Th-232 decay series) has a higher energy of 2.62 MeV.
AS SUCH THE TINY AMOUNT OF LOW ENERGY GAMMA RAYS PRODUCED BY THORIUM-232 DECAY CHAIN IS NOT BIOLOGICALLY VERY SIGNIFICANT AS AN EXTERNAL OR EVEN AS AN INTERNAL THREAT.
The alpha ray and beta radiation from Thorium-232 is not an external threat because alpha particles cannot penetrate even a piece of paper and beta rays are nothing more than just electrons..note the flow of electrons is electricity.
SO WHAT'S THE BIG RADIATION FUSS FROM THORIUM-232 DECAY?
Dato' Dr Looi Hoong Wah
FAMM, MB., ChB(Manchester), MRCS(England), MRCP(UK), MRCP(London)
POTASSIUM AND THORIUM AS INTERNAL EMITTERS
ReplyDeleteWe have to realise that Potassium is ALWAYS in the human body and is strictly homeostatically controlled at 140 g to 200 g (average about 4,400 Bq) per human body, whereas Th-232 IS NEVER IN THE HUMAN BODY IN SIGNIFICANT AMOUNTS.
Note: Bq is the activity and the 4,400 Bq from K-40 has to be converted to the biological dosage before it can be used to compare with exposure from other sources.
Since the average absorbed Beta energy of K-40 decay is 499 keV and the average absorbed Gamma energy is 156 keV, it can be easily calculated that the INTERNAL DOSAGE from K-40 ~ 0.24 mSv/yr or rather a range of 0.17 to 0.24 mSv/yr.
Since the worst case scenario for Lynas is 0.002 mSv/y, the biological radiation dose is about 120 times the Lynas worst case scenario.
To put in another way,
ALTHOUGH THE DIET INTAKE OF POTASSIUM DOES NOT, OVER THE LONG TERM, INFLUENCE THE TOTAL AMOUNT OF POTASSIUM IN THE BODY, THE BODY IS EXPOSED TO A BIOLOGICALLY SIGNIFICANT DOSE OF RADIATION FROM THIS RADIONUCLIDE.
The INTERNAL TOTAL DOSE TO A TYPICAL MEMBER OF THE POPULATION FROM INTERNAL RADIONUCLIDES IS ABOUT 0.42 mSv/y AND APPROXIMATELY 0.17 TO 0.29 mSv/yr IS DUE TO THE K-40 IN THE BODY. The rest of the dosage is from C-14 and other trace radionuclides.
The internal dose from the NORMS in the body is equivalent to 210 x the dosage from Lynas worst case scenario.
Thorium-232 is never in the body in significant amounts. In fact the average level of Thorium-232 in an average body has been estimated to be less than 30 micrograms per person.
IN OTHER WORDS, TO GET 30 GRAMS OR 1 OUNCE OF TH-232, WE NEED TO EXTRACT IT FROM 1,000,000 HUMAN BODIES. Even in places with high Th-232 in the soil like in Kerala, the load of Th-232 is not significantly raised.
Most of the human data for thorium exposure comes from diagnostic studies. A massive dose of 1 to 2 vials of 25 ml of 25% Colloidal thorium-232 dioxide (Thorotrast) was injected into patients as a radiographic contrast medium between 1928 and 1955.
Thorium dioxide in Thorotrast is insoluble and in a colloidal form i.e. in the form of particles. All insoluble particles are taken up by the macrophages and other cells of the reticulo-endothelial (RE) system and deposited into the tissues of the RE system i.e. the liver, spleen, lymph nodes, bone marrow and parts of the small intestines and not just the bones.
In humans, where will the SOLUBLE AND NON-PARTICULATE FORM OF THORIUM SALTS BE DEPOSITED and what is the renal clearance and hence their biological half life?
Nobody really knows because, for obvious reasons, all studies done on Thorium are conducted on animals. The results are only applicable to rats, rabbits, cats and dogs !
Thorium-232 in clay soil cannot enter the body by ingestion as it is strongly adsorbed by clay. In the crystalline or soluble form in the absence of clay, it is estimated only 0.02 to 0.05% is absorbed. When mixed with clay only a minuscule amount is absorbed.
Inhalation of Thorium-232 only occurs if there are particles of less than 5 microns in the air, most effective are particles that are about 1 to 2 microns.
These particles are found only in the Uranium or Thorium mines or where there is combustion.
The ore used by Lynas are moist and the whole process do not involve any dry powder at any stage. So inhalation is not a problem in the ultra-modern, state of the art Lynas plant.
As such to compare the renal clearance of Potassium with that of Thorium-232 clearance and conclude that Th-232 is a few hundred times more dangerous radiologically, do not make any sense because Th-232 is NEVER in the body in any significant quantity and Potassium is ALWAYS in the body in biologically significant amounts.
Dr Looi.
What is the "safe" level of radiation?
ReplyDeletePublic dose limits for exposure from uranium mining or nuclear plants are usually set at 1 mSv per year above background.
According to the National Council on Radiation Protection and Measurement (NCRP) and its international counterpart, the International Commission on Radiological Protection (ICRP). Both of these organizations offer recommendations for the maximum permissible dose (MPD) of radiation.
General Public annual MPD by both NCRP and ICRP is 1 mSv.
For Radiation Workers, the annual MPD is 50 mSv (NCRP) and 20 mSv (ICRP), with a cumulative MPD of 10 mSv x Age.
MPD during pregnancy is 5 mSv (NCRP) and 2 mSv (ICRP).
HOWEVER, EXPERTS INCLUDING Professor WADE ALLISON OF OXFORD UNIVERSITY ARGUE THAT THE DOSE LIMIT CAN SAFELY BE RAISED TO 100 mSv, based on current health statistics.
Compare this with the dose of 0.002 millisieverts/year of exposure for people living within 1 km of the Lynas plant in the worst case scenario (estimated by Lynas).
This level of 0.002 mSv/yr is actually grossly overestimated because the low energy gamma rays from the Thorium-232 decay chain is able to travel less than 300 metres in air.
Note, the average energy of most abundant emission is only 0.059 MeV, though the gamma ray from Thallium-208 decay to stable Lead-208 has a higher energy of 2.62 MeV.
The radon-220 has a very short half life of only 55 seconds and as such cannot travel far and do not accumulate in confined spaces like the radon-222 from the Uranium decay series.
So the actual radiation dose at a distance greater than 300 metres from the plant is approaching 0 mSv/year !
Comparative Dosages in Biological Effect in mSv.
Dose from natural radiation in the human body: 0.40 mSv per year
Sleeping next to someone for 8 hours daily = 0.02 mSv/yr (10x Lynas worst case)
Sleeping in wooden house = 0.20 mSv/yr (100x Lynas worst case)
Smoking a pack of cigarettes daily 0.20 mSv/yr (100x Lynas worst case)
Slag brick and granite house = up to 2.0 mSv/yr (1,000x Lynas worst case)
Chest X-ray = 0.10 mSv
Medical or dental X-ray 0.39 mSv
CT Scan (Chest) = 10 mSv
CT Fluoroscopy of abdomen and pelvis 6 to 90 mSv (median=31 mSv)
Average individual background radiation dose: 2 mSv per year (1.5 mSv per
year for Australians and 3.0 mSv per year for Americans)
Dose from atmospheric sources (mostly radon): 2 mSv per year
Total average radiation dose for Americans: 6.2 mSv per year
Current average dose limit for nuclear workers: 20 mSv per year
Dose from background radiation in parts of Iran, India and Europe: 50 mSv per year
(Source: UNSCEAR and EPA and IAEA)
cont
cont
ReplyDeleteAll the potassium that we eat everyday in our food contains potassium-40 and the normal dietary potassium would give a total of about 80 Bq per day.
Compare this with the Lynas waste which produces only 6 Bq/gm
Even your wife or husband is radioactive, with a radioactivity of 4,000 Bq from Potassium-40 and another 3,000 Bq from Carbon-14 giving a total of about 7,000 Bq!
Sleeping next to someone (i.e. your wife or husband) for 8 hours a day will lead to an exposure of 0.02 mSv/year (Source: UNSCEAR and EPA).
Since all living cells contain potassium, all types of meat, flesh, fruits, nuts and vegetables are radioactive because of the potassium-40 content.
The so-called sodium free salt recommended by health experts to combat high blood pressure is nothing more than just highly radioactive potassium salt! Even a lot of doctors, specialists and professors do not know this!
The message here is that more radioactive substances are freely sold in the shops and used as a fertilizer or eaten by us than you would otherwise thought.
Dr. Gary H. Kramer, who is the Head of the National Internal Radiation Assessment Section at Health Canada:
“Potassium chloride can be found in large quantities in stores selling materials for water treatment. The potassium content is about 500 g kg-
Typically, the material is sold in 20 kg bags so each bag contains ~600 kBq of 40K giving a concentration of 30 Bq g-1. This is well above the exclusion level yet the material is handled as non-radioactive. The external dose rate in close proximity to a typical display in these types of shops would be about 150 microSv hr-1.
A worker would only need to be near the pile for about 7 hours to exceed the public dose limit of 1 mSv.”
Quote: Nick Tsurikov, radiation safety expert:
" In most countries, the current maximum permissible dose to radiation workers is 20 mSv per year averaged over five years, with a maximum of 50 mSv in any one year.
This is over and above background exposure, and excludes medical exposure. The value originates from the International Commission on Radiological Protection (ICRP), and is coupled with the requirement to keep exposure as low as reasonably achievable (ALARA) — taking into account social and economic factors." Unquote.
Dato' Dr Looi Hoong Wah.
FAMM, MB., ChB(Manchester), MRCS(England), MRCP(UK), MRCP(London).
*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=RPOGzrqu1Vg
*
ReplyDeleteQuote Weng Kit Tang:" I wonder how much thorium and uranium will might go into the water or underground during treatment? " Unquote.
Answer:
Practically NONE for Thorium as Thorium in it's soluble or insoluble form, is VERY STRONGLY ADSORBED TO CLAY PARTICLES AND CANNOT BE LEACHED OUT BY WATER.
It has been found that even in areas with a very high natural concentration of Thorium, the Thorium concentration on the surface of the clay is more than 500,000% higher than in the interstitial fluid i.e. it is strongly adsorbed and no amount of leaching could get it out into the underground.
Uranium, which is not a problem with the Lynas "waste" is less strongly absorbed by clay.
Please note that all the waste storage ponds in Lynas are lined with a thick layer of clay. All the soluble and insoluble salts of Thorium are safely adsorbed by the clay.
Quote Nick Tsurikov:
" NICK TSURIKOV, RADIATION SAFETY SPECIALIST, ON LYNAS PLANT, QUOTE:
"The following has been confirmed way too many times and has NEVER EVER been proven to be false by anyone:
1. Radiation from the plant will be undetectable outside the boundaries;
2. None of the materials have to be signposted as 'radioactive' for transport - as per international regulations, since 1996;
3. In accordance with international guidelines, the plant can be allowed to operate pretty much anywhere in the world with minimal regulation;
4. Vast majority of tailings will have only half of thorium that is in normal Malaysian soil;
5. Thorium in other waste is insoluble and cannot 'poison' any plants, animals or the environment - even in theory;
6. Blending of tailings follows the basic safety principle of World Health Organisation, International Labour Organisation and seven more UN and other reputable international organisation - with guidelines on this existing in many countries;
7. Maximum dose to workers is not expected to be more that ~25% of the limit, therefore - in accordance with international guidelines - personal monitoring is not even necessary: the doses are so low that they can be assessed for a 'work group', no need for 'individual' assessments.
Unquote.
2 MOST VOLUMINOUS LYNAS "WASTE" = 12 ppm of Thorium
SMALL 3rd RESIDUE STREAM (WLP)= 1,500 ppm of Thorium
AVERAGE MALAYSIAN SOIL = 20 ppm OF THORIUM
ORE FOR LYNAS PLANT = 1,600 ppm (parts per million) of Thorium
Nick Tsurikov, Radiation Safety Expert: " THE MAJORITY OF THIS LYNAS "WASTE" WILL HAVE ONLY HALF THE THORIUM THAN IN NORMAL MALAYSIAN SOIL.
So, in fact most of Lynas residues are only half as radioactive as the sand the kids all over Malaysia play in the kindergartens"
(Note: Sand or crystalline SiO2 is also classified as a group 1 Carcinogen by IARC).
Dato' Dr Looi
*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yf4ZFngQQhg
*
ReplyDeleteQuote Anti-Lynas: "Thorium-232 may not be dangerous as negligible amounts are absorbed from the gut and insignificant amount is inhaled by non-miners, but what about the dangerous accumulation of Radon gas?" Unquote.
Answer:
Thorium-232 produces only alpha rays (gamma rays from daughter isotopes are insignificant) which cannot pass through even a thin piece of paper or the surface of the skin.
The 0.09 MeV gamma ray detected in freshly separated Thorium-232 actually comes from Radium-228, one of the daughter radionuclides from the Thorium-232 decay.
If you have a lump of pure Thorium-232, all you need to do is to wrap it up in newspaper and that will stop all the alpha radiation from getting out!
Since alpha radiation cannot go far, even if you have a huge pile of Lynas waste, the external radiation would not increase by much because only the tiny percentage of thorium-232 atoms directly on the surface of the pile will be able to radiate out their alpha particles. Those just below the surface will remain inside the pile and be converted to simple helium gas.
Since this is a case of an element which has an extremely long half life (14 billion years) and all the daughter radionuclides have relatively very short half lives (from microseconds to 6.7 years), at equilibrium, the concentration of the daughter radionuclides is very small.
Because the concentration of Thorium-232 in the Lynas waste is so low, the gamma radiation from the daughter isotopes are relatively low.
As far as radon gas is concerned, it must be remembered that Radon-220 from the decay chain of Thorium-232 has a very short half life of only 55 seconds!
As such only a tiny amount of Radon-220 (a.k.a. Thoron) within a few centimetres of the surface of a huge pile of waste will be able to live long enough to escape from the pile and see the light of day!
A lot of people have mistaken Radon-220 from Thorium-232 decay series with the more notorious Radon-222 which has a much longer half life of 3.8 days. Radon-222 comes from Uranium-238 decay series.
Because of its much longer half life, Radon-222 can and do accumulate in the cellars and poorly ventilated areas of domestic dwellings. Radon-222 is the gas that has been linked to lung cancers in especially non-smokers.
So please do not blame poor Thorium-232. It does not produce any Radon-222 and as such is not guilty of radon induced lung cancers.
The radiation of 6 Bq/gm from the weakly radioactive Thorium-232 in the Lynas waste is so low that even IAEA do not consider it significant and as such can be transported without any special permission.
Dato' Dr Looi Hoong Wah
FAMM, MB., ChB(Manchester), MRCS(England), MRCP(UK), MRCP(London)
*
http://kickdefella.net/2012/04/17/lynas-negligible-radiation-but-only-toxic-chemical-waste/#more-5242
*
ReplyDeleteQuote: "Thorium-232 do not produce any gamma rays, but it's daughter radionuclides do produce the dangerous penetrating gamma rays" Unquote
Pure freshly separated Thorium-232 has only a slight alpha activity. There is no beta radiation and only a slight amount of gamma radiation (from the 0.09-MeV gamma rays which emanate from Th-228 decay).
However, the activity from the Th-228 side of the chain is quickly re-established. A first equilibrium state is reached in about 36 days (10 half-lives of Ra-224).
Activity then declines, as Th-228 decays faster than it is replenished by decaying Ac-228. About 3 years after separation, the activity is lower than at any other time except just after isolation.
Activity then increases until the second equilibrium state is reached in about 60 years or so.
Thorium-232 with all its daughter radionuclides
Total alpha energy = 36.2 MeV per nuclear decay
Total Gamma energy = 3.40 MeV per nuclear decay
Total Beta energy = 5.95 MeV per nuclear decay
Since the Lynas waste has 6 Bq/gm of activity, 1 KILOGRAM would have 6,000 Bq and that will produce 20,400 MeV of gamma ray energy from all the daughter radionuclides at equilibrium.
20,400 MeV from 1 kg of Lynas waste = 0.0000000007808 calories or 0.000000003268 joules.
This amount of gamma ray energy from 1 KILOGRAM of Lynas waste is not enough to tickle the backside of even a tiny little newborn caterpillar!
The total alpha energy is much larger i.e. 36.2 MeV but since alpha radiation does not pose an external threat and Thorium in clay soil is not absorbed, and since inhalation only affects miners, it is not a problem either for the Kuantan folks. But it may be a problem for those poor Australian miners in Mount Weld in Western Australia.
So, the Australians are the ones getting the wrong side of the deal!
Dust particles can get deep into the lungs only if they are very small i.e. much less than 10 micron. The particles that are less than 5 microns are the ones which can get deep into the alveoli of the lungs. Larger ones are trapped by the mucus in the nose and upper respiratory tract and are coughed out or sneezed out.
con't
con't
ReplyDeleteParticles of less than 5 microns can only be found in the Thorium and Uranium mines where powerful machines are used or where there is combustion.
Since alpha radiation cannot go far (the 4.0 MeV alpha particle from Thorium-232 decay can travel only 27.8 microns in water), even if you have a huge pile of Lynas waste, the external radiation would not increase by much because only the tiny percentage of thorium-232 atoms directly on the surface of the pile will be able to radiate out their alpha particles.
Those just below the surface will remain inside the pile and be converted to simple helium gas and those on the surface will travel only 2.54 cm into the air, picks up 2 electrons and become the harmless Helium for you to fill up your balloon.
The beta particles which are electrons (electricity = flow of electrons) do not pose an external threat either. There are lots more high voltage electrons on your clothing as static electricity when you stay in a dry air-condition room than from the waste.
Only gamma rays from your mountain of Lynas waste from less than 45 cm deep (depending on the type of soil and the water content) are able to see the light of day, as those deeper than that will be blocked by the layer of soil from getting out. And as shown above the amount of gamma rays are insignificant.
When the mother radionuclide has an extremely long half life and the daughters have very short half life, there is very little accumulation of the short half life daughters.
For instance, I did a quick calculation and found that the concentration of the daughter radionuclides is negligible e.g. there is only 1 atom of Radium 224 for every 1.4 trillion atoms of Thorium-232 at equilibrium (I stand to be corrected).
As far as radon gas is concerned, it must be remembered that Radon-220 from the decay chain of Thorium-232 has a very short half life of only 55 seconds!
As such only a tiny amount of Radon-220 (a.k.a. Thoron) within a few centimetres of the surface of a huge pile of waste will be able to live long enough to escape from the pile and see the light of day!
A lot of people have mistaken Radon-220 from Thorium-232 decay series with the more notorious Radon-222 which has a much longer half life of 3.8 days. Radon-222 comes from Uranium-238 decay series.
Because of its much longer half life, Radon-222 can and do accumulate in the cellars and poorly ventilated areas of domestic dwellings. Radon-222 is the gas that has been linked to lung cancers in especially non-smokers.
So please do not blame poor Thorium-232. It does not produce any Radon-222 and as such is not guilty of radon induced lung cancers.
SO WHAT'S THE BIG RADIATION PROBLEM?
Dr HW Looi
CANCER, RADIATION AND THOROTRAST
ReplyDeleteI have known about the controversy of Thorotrast (a 25 cc vial of a 25% colloidal suspension of Thorium dioxide) since I was a medical student in Manchester about 45 years ago and in fact I have been collecting a fair amount of data with regards to this contrast media.
Thorotrast was given as a contrast media via the vein or artery and the dose of Thorium used was huge, though this depends on the type of radiological procedure done.
It had been estimated that as many as 4 million people were given this contrast in the 1930 to late 1950s.
It has been claimed that there was an increase in the incidence of cancers especially of the liver.
However, we need to consider a number of factors before we can be sure that this is the real culprit.
1) The radiation dose from those old X-ray machines in the 1930 to 1950s are hundreds of times that of the present machines.
For instance an 1896 X-ray machine was tested and found to have exposed the body to 1,500 times more radiation than modern technology does, largely because each image took 90 minutes to develop, dramatically increasing the patient's cumulative exposure to the rays. By 1930 to 1950s, the radiation dose have improved a lot but still much higher than the present X-ray machines.
Modern day X-rays require only about 21 milliseconds, and technicians place lead coverings over the body to protect vital organs from even this slight exposure.
Even in the 50s and 60s, the dose of X-rays from Tuberculosis screening is about 100 times higher than that of today's Chest X-Ray.
The fluoroscope leaves the X-ray beam "on" while the physician does his examination and as such, the fluoroscope has the potential to deliver very high X-ray doses.
In the 1920s, fluoroscopy became very popular procedure not only among radiologists, but also among many kinds of physicians.
Radiological methods of diagnosis became so important that no investigation of a patient is considered complete without the X-rays, which generally include fluoroscopy. These studies are often carried out by a general practitioner or surgeon in his office.
In 1942, Dr. Franz Buschke and Herbert M. Parker wrote (Buschke 1942):
"Recently we became aware of the fact that apparently a number of pediatricians include fluoroscopy in the monthly routine examinations of infants in their care during the first and second years of life." This pediatric practice is confirmed in Pifer 1963 and in Blatz 1970.
After studying the radiation output of seven fluoroscopes in the offices of "reputable pediatricians selected at random," Buschke and Parker estimated (Buschke 1942, p.527): "If the average rapid fluoroscopy by an experienced and well-adapted examiner takes twenty seconds, about 8.3 roentgens [entrance dose] will be delivered at this rate or 100 roentgens during the first year of life." The roentgen is a dose-unit which is approximately equivalent to a rad (actually it is less as the ICRU defined the roentgen to be 2.58e -4 C/Kg in 1971)
Fluoroscopy was popular also in hospitals.
cont
cont
ReplyDelete(Braestrup 1942, p.213):
"During the past years, we have measured the roentgen output of large numbers of fluoroscopes, using the settings at which they are normally operated ... and have found a very wide variation ... Attention is called particularly to test B-116, where the R [roentgen] per minute at the panel was 127, that is, an erythema dose would be reached in about three minutes. Such a unit could be classified as a lethal diagnostic weapon and yet there are many of these still in use."
Of the various types of radiologic equipment, the mobile unit probably has been responsible for more radiation damage than any other piece of apparatus. These accidents have in most cases occurred while the mobile unit was used for fluoroscopy by surgeons, who apparently did not realize the high output obtained at short distances."
In an attempt to prevent some injuries, A LIMIT OF 100 ROENTGENS (approximately 1,000 mSv) per fluoroscopic examination was set in New York City hospitals (Braestrup 1969).
The patients who received the Thorotrast were subjected to a huge dose of X-rays from these antique X-ray machines.
This huge dose of X-rays may be the cause of most of the cancers, we just do not know as most of the studies are unable to assess the X-ray's dose. All these studies are done 20 to 30 years later.
So we cannot use other patients who have X-rays done in the 1930s to 1950s as a control group since most X-rays which do not need a contrast media consist of only 1 or 2 X-ray pictures.
A few of the studies do have controls but these controls were cases from later years especially after 1947 when the advancement in radiological techniques and hence dosage reduction is greatest.
It is generally accepted that the risk of radiation induced cancer is 1 in 20,000 per mSv.
As such, a dose of about 1,000 mSv would mean a risk of 1 in 20. For 4 million patients injected with Thorotrast, THIS RADIATION WOULD GIVE RISE TO AN EXCESS OF 200,000 CASES OF RADIATION INDUCED CANCERS IN THE 4 MILLION CASES OF "THOROTRAST" PATIENTS!
In 1953, Dade W. Moeller (then of the Public Health Service; later, president of the Health Physics Society) published an estimate that the average entrance dose per fluoroscopic examination was about 65 roentgens (about 650 mSv) at mid-century (Moeller 1953, pp.58-59).
The use of Thorotrast was discontinued by 1953.
2) The contrast studies are usually done for patients who are rather ill and may have multiple other disorders.
The cancers usually appear (as most cancers do) about 20 to 30 years later when the patients reach the "cancer" age. Because of this long lapse of cause and effect, all the studies are retrospective in nature.
And as you know, all retrospective studies are full of problems and inaccuracies.
3) A lot of these patients, have other disorders which may also lead to cancer like alcoholic cirrhosis, hepatitis B and hepatitis C. In fact the first case of liver cancer I saw in Manchester was an old alcoholic with severe liver cirrhosis. But he also had Thorotrast contrast study more than 20 years earlier. Because of this history, the surgeon had to report him as a Thorotrast induced cancer.
4) With about 4 million by now old people, we are bound to come across a lot of cancer cases. Since the life time risk of cancer in the advanced countries is 1 in 5, there should be about 800,000 cases of cancer due to other causes.
So how many if any of these (taking into account all the above problems) are really caused by the radiation from the massive dose of intravenous Thorium-232... nobody can be really sure. If anybody says he can tell, then either he is lying or he does not know what he is saying.
Dato' Dr Looi Hoong Wah
FAMM, MB., ChB(Manchester), MRCS(England), MRCP(UK) MRCP(London)
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Email: looihw88@gmail.com
http://kickdefella.net/2012/04/17/lynas-negligible-radiation-but-only-toxic-